The Battle of Chalons - Location

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Considering I'm with some more worthy scholars here than I'm usually stuck with on the TWC Forums, I was wondering; what is the possibility in regards to Finding the Battle of Chalons? The Treasure of Pouan, found in the Late 1800s, seems to help pinpoint the location of the Battle (or at least the Visigothic Camp) to aube in France, so what would be the actual possibility of a Team of Archaeologists setting out to find it succeeding? It would be a rather large and unique find, considering how large it's supposed to have Been (about 30000 men on each side).

We have sort of a description, but Jordanes isn't exactly the most reliable author about it. A ridge with a stream at the bottom is rather vague.

[Longovicium]

MMFA, please don't disparage another forum. You are not 'stuck with' people on the TWC site.You chose to join that site as did I and we all appreciate eachother's input.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

MMFA, please don't disparage another forum. You are not 'stuck with' people on the TWC site.You chose to join that site as did I and we all appreciate eachother's input.

Oh yes, I appreciate their input, but you can't talk in the historical forums there without being criticized by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. I should have worded that differently, agreed.

[Cavok]

I think this particular forum is great because even if you say something stupid the people here patiently and nicely tell you that your thought's should perhaps be directed in a different direction. Nice polite open and VERY Patient people.


Anyway.

I would start by initialy taking the locals into a pub/wine bar/Cafe and ask them what might have turned up over the years. Then by looking at where near or around chalon you could position 60,000 violence inclined chaps with posturing room. Next take a look at various tactical layouts to make sure the formations could maneuvre in that room (these changed over the ages!). Check geological things like old rivers and springs that would influence things negatively (one doe's not want ones armour to get muddy). where ever was left might be worth putting some trenches into. Another method rather than trenches would maybe to put some Metall detectorists on a short leash and let them take a look (don't let them under the plough level!!, just find some evidence to dig a certain area!!!).


But thats just me.....there are many many people here that would love to advise....and asking should never be a problem.

My few Kronors worth.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I think this particular forum is great because even if you say something stupid the people here patiently and nicely tell you that your thought's should perhaps be directed in a different direction. Nice polite open and VERY Patient people.


Anyway.

I would start by initialy taking the locals into a pub/wine bar/Cafe and ask them what might have turned up over the years. Then by looking at where near or around chalon you could position 60,000 violence inclined chaps with posturing room. Next take a look at various tactical layouts to make sure the formations could maneuvre in that room (these changed over the ages!). Check geological things like old rivers and springs that would influence things negatively (one doe's not want ones armour to get muddy). where ever was left might be worth putting some trenches into. Another method rather than trenches would maybe to put some Metall detectorists on a short leash and let them take a look (don't let them under the plough level!!, just find some evidence to dig a certain area!!!).


But thats just me.....there are many many people here that would love to advise....and asking should never be a problem.

My few Kronors worth.

Again, sorry, I was kinda pissed at some people in the Main historical forum (V&V forum) when they failed to provide sources i consistently asked for, regarding some research i was doing. Also, a lot of you guys are Re-enactors, and a lot of the TWc people are Professors, so if you look in the right places, you can get good discussion out of both forums.

And at what you said; Iordanes mentions in Attila's speech the romans were "Hiding behind thier wall of shields" and considered them an unworthy opponet (which they most certainly were not considering Aetius' troops had years of victories from all the battles he won).

The layout was as follows: Romans ina Foulkon/Shieldwall-Like formation at the top of a Ridge, with Visigoths, alans, and others to their right, with Attila and Friends at the Bottom, on a plain with a stream running through it. I also heard something mentioned about a crossroads there, but I'm not 100% certain about that and would require research.

So yes, you're right you'd have to find a field to accomodate 60000 men plus their camps, and tag-alongs (the number 300000 that Idatius, Iordanes mentioned would be consistent if you counted various nuclear families and slaves probably brought along by the Armies, but there's no way the ROman could have fielded that many fighting men since the 3rd century, and the huns couldn't period.)

So Aube Narrows it down, and I doubt the Armies would have marched very far from their camps to battle considering the lack of discipline on both sides.

It's likely Metal objects would have turned up somewhat, but most of the Armor and weapons would have been scavenged by the Roman troops after the Hunnic force and Goths left, so If there were any objects ploughed up it's gonna be very signifigant to the location.

[jho]

I believe that there have been a few attempts to locate the battle site on a philological basis but nothing more precise than "Campus mauriacensis" near Troyes / Chalons-en-Champagne has been the outcome.

Timo Stickler, Aetius Gestaltungsspielräume eines Heermeisters im ausgehenden Weströmischen Reich Vestigia, Band 54, mentions the following sources and modern works:

Iordanes, Prosper, Hydatius, Chronicles of 452 and 511, Cassiodor, and Gregory of Tours

U. Täckholm, Aetius and the Battle on the Catalanian Fields.

Barnish, S.J.B. “Old Kaspars: Attila's Invasion of Gaul in the Literary Sources.” In: Fifth-Century Gaul: A Crisis of Identity? Ed. John Drinkwater and Hugh Elton

Alföldi: Lee champs Catalauniques, Revue des Études Hongroises 6 (1928)

This may also be helpful: http://history.eserver.org/attila-at-chalons.txt

The amount of detail we have on the battle is limited and may be largely topical (the fight for a hilltop, the river swollen with blood). Streams change their course over time. Given the surprisingly small amounts of finds we have from actual known battle fields and the fact that those finds are largely limited to areas uncultivated since ancient times (Harzhorn) or other lucky circumstances (the sliding wall at Kalkriese) and given the fact that this area appears to have been heavily cultivated since ancient times, you would need a lot of luck to find the actual site.

[Cavok]

At last you guys have provided me with a reason to get out of my sister in-laws house when visiting...she lives not too far away from Chalon!!.

Seems that some of those points would narrow it down to certain areas to look at.

Just get disposable metal detectorists by the way......there is a lot of unexploded very old unstable and indeed nasty unexploded ordnance around those parts.

Be worth some field walking though and ask the locals if stuff like lead slingshot and stuff turn up anywhere. Did they still use slings then?

[Robert Vermaat]

Streams change their course over time. Given the surprisingly small amounts of finds we have from actual known battle fields and the fact that those finds are largely limited to areas uncultivated since ancient times (Harzhorn) or other lucky circumstances (the sliding wall at Kalkriese) and given the fact that this area appears to have been heavily cultivated since ancient times, you would need a lot of luck to find the actual site.

Indeed. Battlesites can be ploughed over a thousand times when in such cultivated areas as Gaul. We were relatively lucky with kalkriese and Harzhorn - neither are in an agricultural area.

[Cavok]

Indeed. Battlesites can be ploughed over a thousand times when in such cultivated areas as Gaul. We were relatively lucky with kalkriese and Harzhorn - neither are in an agricultural area.

Oh Dear. hock:



[attachment]Picture1.png[/attachment]

[Cavok]

Indeed. Battlesites can be ploughed over a thousand times when in such cultivated areas as Gaul. We were relatively lucky with kalkriese and Harzhorn - neither are in an agricultural area.

Oh Dear hock:


[attachment=3531]Picture1.jpg[/attachment]

[Flavivs Aetivs]

At last you guys have provided me with a reason to get out of my sister in-laws house when visiting...she lives not too far away from Chalon!!.

Seems that some of those points would narrow it down to certain areas to look at.

Just get disposable metal detectorists by the way......there is a lot of unexploded very old unstable and indeed nasty unexploded ordnance around those parts.

Be worth some field walking though and ask the locals if stuff like lead slingshot and stuff turn up anywhere. Did they still use slings then?

Yes Slings were in use until the 15th Century.


Also, you guys are getting it all wrong; THE BATTLE WAS NOT AT CHALONS EN CHAPAGNE, IT'S AT POUAN-LES-VALLES (AKA Aube). Th Treasure of Pouan marks the burial site of a Visigothic Leader, not Theodoric but someone of Nobility or Rank in the Visigothic Army. The Burial, based on known Funeral Practices in Germanic tribes, would have been conducted in the camp, as I doubt equipment of that grade and high quality would have been left out on the battlefield. Ergo, Aube narrows it down to less-cultivated area, worth of exploration within the surrounding mile or 2. Remember, the battle was essentially the Hunnic Coalition Charging into a Roman Foulkon/Shieldwall at the top of a Hill repeatedly. It would not have required a lot of space to fight the battle even though the sides constituted 60000 men total.

[Cavok]

Actually I think that makes it easier...though to find some ridges I need a different map.

To be honest looking for best fighting positions etc it is probably better to go there with your military hat on, and go on where would you put your guys.

I can allready see some suspicious parch marks that form a crossrads not currently shown by existing roads. Rivers are there......anyone up for a visit....I am in!

Reason I mentioned slings is that the shot may not have been as rigorously collected after the battle, but should still turn up today. Also to be honest that area looks to be fairly well cultivated as well.


[attachment=3546]untitledPouan.JPG[/attachment]

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I'll go find a topographical map of the area, could you point out the crossroads?

[Cavok]

Right about where the blob is.


[attachment=3556]pouenmarked.JPG[/attachment]

Sorry it's not very refined. I am in Sweden working and only have paint to work with.

The parch mark may/may not be it. Worth a look though.
I have no map with contour lines on it here. I have to go do some Engineering stuff at Peugeot soon so I will also try and drive past there on the way over or on the way back to Germany.

Much easier to get a feel for tactical positions on the ground.

[Robert Vermaat]

Th Treasure of Pouan marks the burial site of a Visigothic Leader, not Theodoric but someone of Nobility or Rank in the Visigothic Army. The Burial, based on known Funeral Practices in Germanic tribes, would have been conducted in the camp, as I doubt equipment of that grade and high quality would have been left out on the battlefield.

Although I could agree with your reasoning it's still no guarantee that this gravesite marks the battlesite. The Goths were active in Gaul for a number of years and if not securely dated to this year it could date from decades before or after the battle.