Wearing scale on mail

[Doc]

Oh God Byron,

You have no idea. Erik once sent me a video that unfortunately has gone to the underworld when my computer crahsed and I had to erase EVERYTHING. Anyway, from what I saw, he literally makes every little piece himself. All I bought for him was the sheet brass and the wire for the riveted links. He then manufactures all the pieces.

It is truly an insane armor to make. It has no been as mentioned several years and it will be a few more to be sure.

[jkaler48]

I received a tiny sample with his book and I can well believe that it is taking years to complete the project. It is something you need the skills of a jeweler

[Robert Vermaat]

To date AFAIK there is NO actual reconstruction of scale on mail. Dan Peterson took shark mail used in diving suits and wired scales onto it. The scale size is roughly what you would find on a Squamata.

If you are referring to a lorica plumata, I know of this one (Martin from Leg II AVG):


If you are referring to a squamata over mail, here's Patrick from the Minervii at last year's LRW:
[attachment=3608]patrick.jpg[/attachment]

[Doc]

Robert, I was referring to LHS like the Augsburg piece, Newstead piece etc.

So unless the two gentlemen that you are showing have mail links of 2-3mm diameter punched and riveted respectively, WOVEN into scales that are around 8mm in diameter and roughly 1.1mm in length, then you would be incorrect.

The wearing of scale over mail, I am not sure I know of sources that suggest that. Then again I do not concentrate on the late empire as the kit in the photo suggests.

In the booklet published by Erik Schmid and Martijin (I cannot remember his last name, apologies), they redefined the name of Lorica Plumata as Lorica Hamata Squamataque because the term Lorica Plumata can be relegated to any scale armor with ribs in the scale NOT the particular armor I am discussing.

Dan Peterson made his the way I described it because he mentioned to me that it would be extremely time consuming and it would require an absolute expert in mail to make such a fine item.

[jvrjenivs]

The second photo is indeed Scale over mail. E.g. a loose scale shirt worn on top of a hamata. This is suggested to be in use in the later empire.

Although the shirt of Martin (first picture Robert posted) use bigger rings and scales, it is a LHS. These scales are woven into a shirt with 8 (or 7, I don't remember)rings, all made by Martin himself and was already finished 5 years ago.

[Doc]

Jurjen,

Thanks for the info on the late Roman scale over mail.

However, the other Is Not an LHS no matter how he did it. If we are going to run around and call anything that has scales attached to mail an LHS, then the armor loses it's significance.

Personally, I do not mind nor do I care how many people have an LHS. The more LHS are around the cooler the officers or cavalry would look. However, what I do take issue to is when one (not you necessarily) considers the investment on my part and the effort on Eriks part not unique and have someone say, "oh someone else has an LHS when in reality it is not and if people do not know the real difference, it makes the effort and investment completely futile.

I too wanted to take a mail shirt, open the links and weave scales onto it around five years ago when I started in this adventure. But when I found out that I was going to make something that is not real or it was a blown up version of something real, I deferred to Erik Schmid to make the real thing because I could not.

[martijn.wijnhoven]

Roman armour that has scales integrated into a mail weave isn’t very common in the archaeological record. As doc points out, there are exceptions. I was able to identify nine examples of such armour in my paper ‘Lorica Hamata Squamataque: a Study of Roman Hybrid Feathered Armour’ published in the Journal of the Mail Research Society (2009, Vol. II). Last year another specimen was published found at Doliche, Turkey, making ten in total.

This type of armour is defined by the minute size of all its components. It is made up of a mail backing of alternating rows of riveted and solid rings; the outer diameter of the links measuring no more than a few millimetres. The scales that cover the outside of the garment do not resemble those commonly seen in Roman scale armour; here each scale is folded through a 90 degree angle at the top, where four small holes are found in the horizontal ledge thus formed. The scales are attached to the mail by inserting riveted links through the holes before closing them and as a result become an integral part of the weave. On every other row of rings - the riveted ones - there is a horizontal row of continuous individual loose scales, which do not overlap. But vertically, the rows of scales are superimposed downwards, each scale partially covering two beneath it, creating an imbricated pattern. The scales are very small, rarely exceeding 11 mm, and they show a vertical medial rib.

Two almost complete loricae have been preserved. There is the shirt from Augsburg, Germany, and a lesser known find from Vize, Turkey. The latter is in a much better condition and still had its textile lining. Not many of the specimens can be dated accurately, but I have been able to establish that this type of hybrid scale-mail armour was at least in use between Claudian and Antonine times.

Cheers,
Martijn

[Doc]

Thank you Martijn for the post. Sorry, I just did not remember your last name.

I agree with Martijn that if we have to talk about LHS, it must be as specific as he mentioned. ANYTHING else is not LHS.

[NateBick]

I dont suppose anyone has a picture of the LHS? It seems that would help clear up exactly what is being discussed and help this thread move along. A picture really is worth a thousand words it seems.

[martijn.wijnhoven]

I dont suppose anyone has a picture of the LHS?

Here you go.

This example comes from the private collection of Dan Peterson and was posted on RAT some years ago.

[attachment=3636]Hybridfeatheredarmour.jpg[/attachment]