A \'new\' look at the linothorax

[Kineas]

Elsewhereon this forum and off it, I've been part of a thousand debates on whether or not Ancient Greeks of the Archaic and Classical had linen based armour. I'll summarize--we don't know, it doesn't look as common as leather if it was there, Alkaios definitely mentions something and Herodotus mentions Persians and Egyptians having it...and Sappho's brother served as a Mercenary in Egypt.

Right?

So I was going through the Beazely gem archive today...

It isn't the smoking gun. But this is the first artistic depiction I've seen that could, without doubt, illustrate a quilted linen armour. It is an Ionian hoplite, according to art historians, from 500BCE--so a little after Alkaios and Sappho's brother, but the same area of the Greek world.

And to add to the fun, he seems to have quilted thigh armour, as well.

While this won't 'settle' anything, I find it quite an interesting and unique image.

[Dan Howard]

It is way too crude to show anyting "without doubt". There are many ways to interpret that. I'm sure D'Amato will think that it is yet another representation of his imaginary segmented leather armour.

[Kineas]

Dan, don't imagine I think there's anything definite here. But it is Ionian, and it could--just could--be quilted. I'm going to make one, I think.

I really rather WANT those to be quilted cuisses. Now that would be fun. And useful for sparring...

The thing is--if you go through the other seventy five of these in the Beazely Archive--they could carve the gem to clearly show whatever they liked--so this was an intentional choice, not 'artistic license.'

Not sure I'd say 'crude.' I include the following as it has roughly the same date and location...

[Magnus]

Would the quilting have been done in that type of pattern?

[Kineas]

Only a little Experimental Archaeology would say for sure, but my guess is that yes, that would be a practical pattern. But that's a SWAG.

[Magnus]

I guess you'll have to make one and see.

[john m roberts]

Considering the high-relief, Silenus-face shield, the rest of the outfit could be equally fnciful.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Three dimentional hoplite shield devices were common enough in 5th and 4th century macedonia. We know about macedonia specifically because many of them have been found there, while in sountern greece we have far frewer organic remains from shields.
That said, even the bronze devices from olympia have some depth, some more and some less.
Khaire
Giannis

[Dan Howard]

None of these things should be treated like photos. Whether actual items being depicted had raised decorations or not is irrelevant. The object in question is a seal and all of the detail has to be raised or it won't function as it is intended. The best you can say about the above is that it is likely a hoplite wearing a corinthian, greaves, and some kind of body armour. The armour doesn't look much like surviving bronze cuirasses and here is a list of alternatives...

It does show a spear being used underarm, which adds fodder to the overarm/underarm debate. It is also proof that hoplites fought with their backs to the enemy and that their feet were the same length as their thighs 8)

[richard robinson]

Actually I support the possibility of it being a quilted armour and believe that to nay say an armour when we enjoy the hobby of experimental archaeology is just being a spoiler of fun and blocker of potential findings.
Magnus, The pattern instantly remided me to what Richard Humble said was a skythian quilted armour but which Duncan Head has on p46 of his Achaemenid Persian Army as "Gold Plaque from the Oxus treasure; a Saka warrior in a typical coat". I.e That style of quiting seems to have been known in various parts of antiquity.

[Dan Howard]

I don't mean to be a nay sayer. I'd love to see a quilted reconstruction that looks like the above seal. But I'd also like to see reconstructions of all the other possibilities too.

[Gaius Colletti]

Very interesting find Kineas, thanks for sharing!

[Gulan]

It could rather be something like this...

[hoplite14gr]

Just to add to the issue.

Second depiction (on pottery)of what might be quilted or "plaques" armor.

http://www.philipresheph.com/demodokos/a.../pic67.htm

I have doubts though that the seal presented -though very interesting- shows items "as they were".

Kind regards

[Magnus]

It could rather be something like this...

Except it looks nothing like that...if they can put that kind of detail in that ring, why just have vertical strips, and not ones that create an actual quilted, square pattern?