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A \'new\' look at the linothorax
#46
Anything approaching thirty layers would be worn by itself. Anything layered with other armour would be a lot lighter. Six to twelve layers would be more typical for an additional outer layer (worn over mail or a brigandine) and even less layers were used for under-armours like a subarmalis.

Sir John Howard's text tells how one standalone quilted jack was made: Each front quarter was made of 18 folds of white fustian*, 4 folds of linen, and covered with a fold of black fustian (23 layers). Each back quarter was made with 16 folds of fustian, 4 folds of linen, and covered with a fold of black fustian (21 layers). The sleeves were lighter so that they remained flexible, being made of 6 folds of fustian, 2 folds of linen cloth, and covered with a layer of black fustian (9 layers).

* Fustian is made by weaving linen and cotton together - linen ran one way (weft) and cotton ran the other (warp).
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#47
Yes Dan, the subarmalis is lighter, but still stiffer than something stuffed with fibre.
But not too stiff.
Also the shoulders are made wit h more layers, incorporated, and then outer layers of a canvas type linen. An inner layer of a finer fabric to make it user friendly.
My first one is about 8 years old now..
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#48
The Ordinances of Louis XI of France (1461-1483) has another example of a standalone quilted armour. The jacks are made of 25-30 layers of cloth and an outer layer of stag's skin - probably for weatherproofing as Nikanor suggested, but the cloth provides the protection from weapons, not the leather.

"And first they must have for the said jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece of the same strength as the jack itself. Thus the jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausses. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."


The Ordinance of St. Maximin de Treves (Oct, 1473) shows that quilted armour intended to be worn over other armour (in this case a mail shirt or brigandine) has less layers than the above standalone quilted armour.

"... The mounted archer must possess a horse worth not less than six francs, and should wear a visorless sallet, a bevor [or possibly a mail standard], a brigandine, or a sleeveless mail shirt under a ten layer jack..."

There are also extant examples: the Charles VI jupon dates to c. 1400. It was worn over mail or a brigandine and it is 2 layers of raw cotton (cotton wool) sandwiched between 7 layers of cloth - 2 folds of linen, then cotton wool, then two folds of linen, then cotton wool, then two folds of linen and an outer layer of silk damask.


This book is worth reading if anyone is interested in how these garments were made. It would have been marvellous if someone in Aldrete's team had read something like this before wasting their time with glue.
http://www.amazon.com/Patterns-Fashion-C...532&sr=1-2
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#49
Quote:Yes Dan, the subarmalis is lighter, but still stiffer than something stuffed with fibre.
But not too stiff.
Also the shoulders are made wit h more layers, incorporated, and then outer layers of a canvas type linen. An inner layer of a finer fabric to make it user friendly.
My first one is about 8 years old now..

Sounds good. How many layers did you use in the body and shoulders? Like John I'd love to see some pics. If you only post close-up pics of its construction we wouldn't be able to see its overall shape. 8)

John, try making a lightly padded integrated liner for your mail before making a standalone subarmalis. You'll be surprised by the results. Segmentata needs a separate subarmalis but hamata doesn't.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#50
I won't be home for 2 weeks, and my laptop is damaged, but will get some pictures to post eventually.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#51
Quote:Nothing in the above post makes much sense. It is almost entirely based on speculation.

Some call it speculation, others a list of "to do" in experimental archaeology. Cos if we are going to stick to archaeological evidence only in statistical terms what are we left of with if not with 10s of 1000s of depictions of armored soldiers and how many? 10? 20? 100? (I do not know, have not measured) depictions of quilted-like appearence. Which of course has at least as many chances to be leather-based than garment based.


Quote:You need to do a lot more research into quilted textile armours. There are many extant examples and even primary documents detailing exactly how they were made. The best textile defenses were made of multiple layers of cloth (up to thirty) with tight rows of quilting
.

Certainly I should certainly. And I am the first to advice looking on other eras/cultures as the various solutions were pretty much known to everyone since early on and everyone picked what suited mostly his fighting style, economics and aristic inclinations. But of course as we know, assigning linen base to quilted representations in ancient Greece that would be for minority cases as most depictions show what seems to be metal or leather or some form of straight unquilted linen. If there was quilting on the inside - this is the speculation and there we do need the input of experimentation. In the very few depictions of quilted material, the linen-based quilting cannot be claimed as majoritative case over leather-based.

When referring to other eras we have to pinpoint too the type of use. Most medieval armies that used linen-based quilted armors were all about feudal guards or steppe riders - i.e. people who wore armour pretty much at peace as well as at war. Mongol riders were at all times ready to raid a village or two. Feudal guards, well that was their everyday job. In both cases rain is not a problem (the first is a standing post, the latter on a horse). Would these conditions apply to ancient Greek hoplites? These fought on foot out in the plain. And wore their armors only on campaigns. While their fighting style was totally day-and-night different to the styles of medieval feudal armies and steppe riders.

We have to bear in mind that quilted armors were most times associated with arrow and shock absorption something that was of course the lesser anxiety of hoplite warfare. Puffing volume into the armor was also not ideal as it reduced flexibility.


Quote:The Royal Armouries demonstrated that a quilted jack layered over a mail shirt can stop a heavy English longbow at short range.

Interesting. But then anyone can produce any results provided he chooses the right thicknesses and arrangements. However, ancient Greek thoraces while 3-dimensional and more voluminous than most modern reconstructions that produce them as garment-like, they were certainly not puffed-up like a quilted one would be. Experiments with quilting and arrows, spears can lead often to differing results as there are 100s of parameters to take into account. I have read of other results claiming quilting per weight offers a bit less of protection than unquilted against sharp blades. Which sounds to me more logical given the simple fact that loose layers slide over each other increasing the overall protection while quilting essentially keeps fabric in same position having to withstand the full force.
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#52
Hi, what do you think is the linothorax Greeks origines or not?

We have discussion about this figures from Lichtenstein - foto of mine from Kelten exhibition:

[Image: photo2.jpg]

And the meaning is, that the figure in linothorax is in the Greek style.

I say it is in the native Eastalpine style (not Greek style) becouse it has native Neggau helmet and the linothorax and we know evidence of the heavy linen armour from Slovenia Magdalenska gora, old iron age = native Eastalpine evidence.

Joze
I like LH
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http://www.alauni.at/ (member)
http://www.kelten.biz/ (my HP on German)
http://www.kelti-living-history.com/ (my HP on Slovenian)
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#53
In what period the statuettes are dated?
Is it beyond reasonable doubt that their armor is non metallic?

As for Greeks the first appearence of "linothoriktos" is by 800 B.C. (Homer Iliad)
Based on that we can say Late Geometric Era but assuming he talks about Late Bronze Age items he has clearly seen (boar tusk helemt for example) We can speculate that this armor existed in Greece from 1200 B.C. The issue will be more clear when the "Thebes Arsenal" findings are going to be published.

Assuming there is a non Greek artifact depicting non metallic armor and dated before lets say 1000 B.C. what arguments are there for this not being a Greek invention?
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#54
Was the linen armour found at Thebes or Patras?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#55
Quote:Based on that we can say Late Geometric Era but assuming he talks about Late Bronze Age items he has clearly seen (boar tusk helemt for example) We can speculate that this armor existed in Greece from 1200 B.C.
I wouldn't be comfortable with such a speculation at present. Are there any Mycenaean depictions of the tube-and-yoke thorax? If not, I would think that if Homer's linothorax refers to something from Bronze Age, then it would probably be a different style.
Dan D'Silva

Far beyond the rising sun
I ride the winds of fate
Prepared to go where my heart belongs,
Back to the past again.

--  Gamma Ray

Well, I'm tough, rough, ready and I'm able
To pick myself up from under this table...

--  Thin Lizzy

Join the Horde! - http://xerxesmillion.blogspot.com/
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#56
As far as I can tell there is nothing to suggest that the noun, linothorax, was ever used by the Greeks to denote a tube-and-yoke armour made of linen. There is one mention of the term in the the entire corpus of Greek texts (Strabo, Geography) and he doesn't give any hint of what it might have looked like. I have no problem using the term to describe any type of Greek armour made of linen, including Bronze Age versions. Homer doesn't use the word at all. He uses an adjective, linothorex, which simply describes someone who is "armoured in linen", not a noun.

The tube-and-yoke style of armour seems to have been made of everything: linen, leather, scale, iron plate; and is seen everywhere from the Aegean to central Asia.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#57
Quote:He uses an adjective, linothorex, which simply describes someone who is "armoured in linen", not a noun.
Aha. I assumed it was a dialectical variant, but that's 'cause I don't know anything about Greek syntax. Thanks for explaining.
Dan D'Silva

Far beyond the rising sun
I ride the winds of fate
Prepared to go where my heart belongs,
Back to the past again.

--  Gamma Ray

Well, I'm tough, rough, ready and I'm able
To pick myself up from under this table...

--  Thin Lizzy

Join the Horde! - http://xerxesmillion.blogspot.com/
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#58
Indeed, it's unlikely to be a substantiative due to its placement, I wouldn't quite call it an appellative either, more a reflection of old Greek accidence = one whose chest is in linen. Its worth pointing out that some of the best editors of antiquity omitted those lines from book two in the first instance, the second one being slightly more secure but also unlikely.
Jass
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#59
There is a new book (Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor: Unraveling the Linothorax Mystery) which claims that it is the first to collect the entire ancient literary evidence.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#60
Quote:There is a new book (Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor: Unraveling the Linothorax Mystery) which claims that it is the first to collect the entire ancient literary evidence.
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-greek-mi...-book.html
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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