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The most decisive battle for Greek history
#1
<FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Any other suggestions?</FONT><FORM method=post action="http://p208.ezboard.com/fgreekarmytalkfrm8.processVote?topicID=9.topic"><table border=0 cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 width="55%"><tbody><tr><td><input type="radio" name="choice" value="1"><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Marathon B.C. 490</FONT></td></tr><tr><td><input type="radio" name="choice" value="2"><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Salamis B.C. 480</FONT></td></tr><tr><td><input type="radio" name="choice" value="3"><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Plataea B.C. 479</FONT></td></tr><tr><td><input type="radio" name="choice" value="4"><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Aegospotami B.C. 405</FONT></td></tr><tr><td><input type="radio" name="choice" value="5"><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Chaeronea B.C. 338</FONT></td></tr></tbody></table><P><input type=submit value="Vote"></form><a HREF=http://p208.ezboard.com/fgreekarmytalkfrm8.showMessage?topicID=9.topic&pollResults=on><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=1>Show results</FONT></A> <p></p><i></i>
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#2
I'm inclined to say that Aegospotami simply finished what was decided at Syracuse 415-413. <p></p><i></i>
Dan Diffendale
Ph.D. candidate, University of Michigan
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#3
Well, you mean disastrous campaign of Nicias, don’t you?<br>
<br>
Demosthenes and his unfortunate assault upon Epipolae may qualify as a battle. I agree.<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#4
Difficult to say - if 4 out of those 5 battles had gone differently (Aegospotami being the odd one out), the course of history would have looked completely different, IMO. <p></p><i></i>
Regards,

Michael A./MicaByte
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#5
Well, <em>for</em> Greek History, you might need to consider Pydna, Cynoscephalae or Hereclea and Asculum which, if they had gone differently, would possibly have expanded and perpetuated Greek influence<br>
<br>
Just a thought IMO<br>
<br>
Muzzaguchi <p></p><i></i>
Murray K Dahm

Moderator

\'\'\'\'No matter how many you kill, you cannot kill your successor\'\'\'\' - Seneca to Nero - Dio 62

\'\'\'\'There is no way of correcting wrongdoing in those who think that the height of virtue consists in the execution of their will\'\'\'\' - Ammianus Marcellinus 27.7.9
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#6
Muzzaguchi,<br>
<br>
If they had gone differently, Romans would probably have needed just a few more years to conquer this part of the world IMHO.<br>
As for Greek influence… Do you really think that Roman occupation was a disaster for Hellenes? I am of the opposite opinion.<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#7
Hi,<br>
<br>
No I agree that Roman conquest was probablythe best thing for the perpetuation of Greek culture but had those battles gone differently it <em>may</em> have had interesting ramifications for Greek History. Also if those battles had been total victories for the Greeks (especially for Pyrrhus) then there may have been little chance for Roman recovery ... we will never know!<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Muzzaguchi <p></p><i></i>
Murray K Dahm

Moderator

\'\'\'\'No matter how many you kill, you cannot kill your successor\'\'\'\' - Seneca to Nero - Dio 62

\'\'\'\'There is no way of correcting wrongdoing in those who think that the height of virtue consists in the execution of their will\'\'\'\' - Ammianus Marcellinus 27.7.9
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#8
Muzzaguchi,<br>
<br>
I missed that you meant Pyrrhus. Sorry.<br>
If he had really seriously defeated Rome, I don’t know what might have happened… Carthage might have conquered eastern Mediterranean.<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#9
I'd say it's between Marathon and Salamis, and probably lean toward Salamis. Without those victories Athens as we know it would have ceased before the dawn of its Golden Age and so much of what we consider "Greek" was really Athenian - literature, history, philosophy, science, art, architecture, and perhaps even the concept of democracy. Hard to imagine our culture without those influences. Besides stopping Oriental despotism, Salamis had a profound influence on the nature of the Athenian state in that previously the land-holding nobility held the power. After the <em>hoi polloi</em> pulled the oars at Salamis, they figured they had a right to their share of political power. <p></p><i></i>
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#10
I'd say Marathon. Why? Because it all started there. For the first time the Greeks were able to convince themsleves that the Persians could be defeated. This led to the Persian wars, which IMHO is the point in history where the East and West seperate. The Greeks were fighting for their freedom, but really they were fighting for a shared set of values that were not shared by the Persians. From this Greek set of values springs Classical civilization and (later) Western civilization. Marathon it seems to me is where this all starts. <p></p><i></i>
Tom Mallory
NY, USA
Wannabe winner of the corona
graminea and the Indy 500.
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#11
I'd say Corinth 146 BC. Why? because it all ended there! <p></p><i></i>
** Vincula/Lucy **
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#12
The Pyrrhus question is interesting, but I think you're overlooking the fact that Pyrrhus DID (technically) defeat the Romans... twice. I don't think Pyrrhus could have stopped Rome anymore than Hannibal could have, or the Antigonids or Seleucids. I don't see any reason to think Pyrrhus was any different, unless you argue that Rome could have better been stopped before they dominated all of Italy... but they were already well on their way anyway. I think Pydna and some of the other Rome vs. a hellenistic power type battles would have had relatively little impact if they'd gone the other way, because the secret of Roman success wasn't winning individual battles. I mean if Hannibal couldn't accomplish much after Lake Trisemene and Cannae, it's clear that virtually no single loss could have stopped Rome. (Of course, when Rome started routinely winning the individual battles, too, it was REALLY all over...)<br>
<br>
Aaron <p></p><i></i>
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#13
I think that Hannibal <em>could</em> have accomplished something after Cannae... in just the same way that Alcibiades <em>could</em> have accomplished something at Syracuse... capitalizing on initial successes to make a sweep of it rather than get drawn into a protracted battle (as Nicias did). Of course, this is all speculation and worthless speculation at that, but I think that Hannibal could have taken Rome immediately after Cannae, and I think that Alcibiades could have taken Syracuse or exacted its surrender within weeks if he hadn't been recalled.<br>
Just my two obols. <p></p><i></i>
Dan Diffendale
Ph.D. candidate, University of Michigan
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#14
I choose to go with salamais for the reason that it broke the persian navy and forced a land battle at marathon, which if memory serves is approximatly 26.7 miles from Athens. Even though it was a defeat the battle of Thermopolye was the battle that saved greece in the view that without the holding of the field by the spartans for seven days the armies of greece would not have had time to mobilize, if that is the correct word, or summon an army to defeat the persians at marathon. Thermopolye is one of four battles that saved western civilization along with marathon, siege of vienna, battle of pottiers. <p></p><i></i>
"Freedom was at stake- freedom, which whets the courage of brave men"- Titus Livius

Nil recitas et vis, Mamerce, poeta videri.
Quidquid vis esto, dummodo nil recites!- Martial
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