1st cent Patera

[Crispvs]

Sorry Brian, I missed your reply.

"In fact it is hard to imagine just why anyone would want to spin a cast object to thin it down for it would indeed be cast at a pre-determined thickness anyway thin if needed."


Well, as Matthew Amt often points out, we are talking about people who put hinges onto leather straps. Not everything they did makes perfect sense. On a more practical note though, from what I have read on the matter, paterae were frequently made from bronze, rather than copper-alloys closer to brass and friends of mine who have tried to cast paterae have told me that it is very difficult to get the bronze to run through the tin sidess of the moulds and they had had a high failure rate until they thickened the sides, resulting in very heavy paterae. Thus practical experimentation with the matter has shown a good reason why you would cast a thicker wall and then pare it down.

"If we go back to page two of this topic there is a patera that is beaten out and a cast base fitted afterwards, in fact there is another cast base from the other one next to the complete patera."

I have had a look at the picture you are referring to and the separate base does certainly seem to be rather too neatly shaped to be a broken part of an object which was made in one piece, so you may be right about some bases being applied after all. However, nothing I could see in any of the other pictures (or that one for that matter) or any I have drawings of suggested to me that the other paterae pictured had had thick bases attached to them.

Crispvs

[66kbm]

As for Military context...i suppose a day long search of http://finds.org.uk/ could turn up some items from known military sites....very labourious though, but a very good way of getting a picture database together.
Kevin

[PhilusEstilius]

The patera shown at page two where the handle had been repaired at some time I have held all of the pieces of it and the other base and it is a beaten out patera that has a cast base fitted
The thickness of the handle indicates to me to have been of 16 gauge as is the upper flange and indeed from much experience of making such items it would take that gauge to reach the depth we see in the bowl.
These beaten out patera start off in the shape of a table tennis bat and they are about an inch or 25mm greater in diameter than the tube used to beat them on and it is an acquired art where it is done in concentric circle beating.
The one that Moi has shown is starting to show holes at its weakest point that is in the upper 1/4 of the bowl as indeed is the reason for the handle to have broken off the larger one at page two.

[Rado]

Last weekend our group LEG IIII SCYTHICA took part in a wonderful festival in Constanta, Romania “Festivalul Antic Tomis”.
We had the opportunity to visit the historical museum and make a lot of pictures.

I hope that these Patera will be beneficial to your collection of archaeological artifacts .

On the description can be read to which Legions these Patera belonged..

[Rado]

A LARGE ROMAN BRONZE SKILLET OR PATERA, c. 1st-3rd cent. The heavy vessel with classic Pompeian style ribbed base. Intact with encrustation. Small hole one edge. 13". Very rare.

[Rado]

CLASSIC ROMAN BRONZE PAN OF POMPEIAN TYPE, ca. 1st-2nd century AD. The pan with deep bowl and flat handle terminating in a suspension ring, the base with the classic Roman ribbed base seen in the finest Roman culinary ware in examples found at Pompeii. 2 x 4.4 x 8.5 inches. Choice red, green and brown patina. Extremely rare and normally found only in a few museum collections.

[jvrjenivs]

Why do you call these patera rare? I wouldn't count them as such.

[Rado]

Why do you call these patera rare? I wouldn't count them as such.

So it has appointed the author of the publication.


Moderated to remove link to site where the trulla/ patera is for sale.

[jvrjenivs]

Which is a salesman and thereby in contradiction with forum rules, right.

Anyway, by copiing that text without stating it's the description given by the copyright holder of that pics (which you aren't either), you admit to agree. Otherwise, you're knowledgeable enough to question that statement and give you own opinion on the matter.

[Vindex]

As a matter of interest, I have recently been looking at Roman Inscriptions in Britain (RIB) Vol 2 Fac 2, and Frere and Tomlin class what is commonly called a patera a TRULLA; the differenec being the latter has the handle and the former does not.

[66kbm]

Not forgetting the "Casseruola"....describes what we would generally call a soldiers patera for cooking in with the concentric rings on the base.
It all gets some what confusing....come on scholars, sort it out...please.
I think all these really need classifying into something we can all understand. Then perhaps a database could be formed.
Heres hopeing
Kevin

[D B Campbell]

Frere and Tomlin class what is commonly called a patera a TRULLA; the difference being the latter has the handle and the former does not.

:lol: When the "Amiens patera" was reported to the English-speaking community back in 1951, it was so called because "the Amiens vase [!] is provided with a handle ... though a less noble and religious name, e.g. 'casserole' would perhaps be more convenient" (JRS 41, 1951, p. 22). The similar vessel found long before at Rudge in Wiltshire was sensibly christened "the Rudge Cup". However, when the Staffordshire Moorlands Pan (another example of the same type of vessel) was reported in 2004 -- notice "pan", rather than patera! -- Dr Tomlin started calling it a trulla. Must be a pet theory.

I notice that art scholars (as opposed to us military know-nothings) habitually call them "skillets", thus side-stepping the issue entirely.

[66kbm]

As a matter of interest, I have recently been looking at Roman Inscriptions in Britain (RIB) Vol 2 Fac 2, and Frere and Tomlin class what is commonly called a patera a TRULLA; the differenec being the latter has the handle and the former does not.

Trulla translates (with the help of google) as Basin. I am not contradicting Moi in any way as she has sent me the item in black and white, but how many basins has one seen with a handle?
I think somehow they got confused and put it visa-versa.
There again what do i know. I'm only a "military no nothing".....love that phrase
Kevin


That last pic from Rado has all the shape and form that i would like for a patera to be made for me. In Bronze if possible...cast or spun...take note please people of the Artisan nature. Pm me if you think ou are capable of manufacturing a 1 off of that item, at a reasonable price.

[Vindex]

I think somehow they got confused and put it visa-versa.
Kevin

I think I could agree with that!

I think if you want a classification you're going to have to do it yourself Kevin.

As one more military know-nothing to another you could call them all paterae, remove the confusion and earn undying thanks from all of us confused.com types!

[66kbm]

I may just start a new thread re "patera types" and ask all for comments on a classification system that we could then use on RAT only. I think that this could only help rather than hinder, though problems could arise when an individual refs a quoted source, that could be translated into the type system i have visioned. To all moderators, do you object to a type system of only 1st cent "cooking/votif/bathing pot" being used on RAT only?
I could start to comply some sort of database of types tonight if there are no objections from yourselves< obviously consulting with other RAT members within a new thread as stated above.
Kevin

I will leave this post as it is awaiting any feedback from the mods. for 48 hours and then i will start a new thread entitled "1st cent patera classification for RAT only. All comments welcome.". I know its a bit long but who cares. Followed matbee a month later by an actual classifical database of types only, not images, on a new thread depending on what the feedback is from RAT members.
Kevin