Linothorax again

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the tip, Matt.

[hoplite14gr]

I did my experiment with linen cloth that is used for furniture cover.
I therefore suggest 14 layers of the think linen and the internal layer close to your body with fine linen for any ambitious "cloth armorer".
Kind regards.

[Dan Howard]

Agreed. The example found at Thebes seems to be made from 10-15 layers but there has been no mention of how coarse each layer was. Around a dozen coarse layers with a fine layer on the inside and outside sounds good to me. Another thing I would do is rotate each layer by 45 degrees so that the weft and warp do not run in the same direction in each layer.

[tlclark]

Khairete!

A bunch of us over on the Padded Armor forum are sharing ideas about the subarmalis.

Basically the idea is that that the subarmalis, especially as we see it on the statuary with the musculata, is patterned after the linothorax.

I was hoping some people more familiar with the linothorax would come over and comment on some of our ideas.

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... &start=240

Thanks

Travis

[Dan Howard]

There is nothing in any of the documentatin or fragmentary evidence that suggests leather or rawhide is used in the construction of the linothorax.

[tlclark]

There is nothing in any of the documentatin or fragmentary evidence that suggests leather or rawhide is used in the construction of the linothorax.

:lol:

Dan you're as constant as the tide!

I love it!

Now how about some suggestions on a linothorax based subarmalis?

Travis

[Dan Howard]

Why not the same thing? A dozen layers of coarse linen quilted between a fine layer on the inside and outside. Though any natural textile would work. Hemp would be my second choice.

[tlclark]

Why not the same thing? A dozen layers of coarse linen quilted between a fine layer on the inside and outside. Though any natural textile would work. Hemp would be my second choice.

Thanks!

Travis

[tlclark]

Another question.

I get a lot of questions to my website, here's one I can't answer.

Do you know anyplace I might get some detailed information on the construction of the cuirass of Philip of Macedon found in the tomb at Vergina? I am fascinated by this armor, which seems to be a metal version of the linothorax, but I can't find out how it was put together, were the iron plates attached to a leather or fabric base, etc.

As far as I know, this cuirass is largely ceremonial, but it is not my area of expertise.

Any sources?

Travis

[Dan Howard]

Most of the evidence seems to suggest that it isn't the tomb of Philip II. Philip III is a better guess.

The armour has completely mineralised so it is impossible to determine metallurguical composition. The current weight of the armour and thickness of the plate is considerably more than it would have been before corrosion set in. Currently, plate thickness is around 3mm. I'm guessing that it would have been 1-2mm when new. The plates were joined with hinges, not attached to a foundation. Some have said that it might have been covered with linen. This is very unlikely. Though it might not have been worn in battle there is nothing about it that would prevent it from being so used.

[tlclark]

Most of the evidence seems to suggest that it isn't the tomb of Philip II. Philip III is a better guess.

The armour has completely mineralised so it is impossible to determine metallurguical composition. The current weight of the armour and thickness of the plate is considerably more than it would have been before corrosion set in. Currently, plate thickness is around 3mm. I'm guessing that it would have been 1-2mm when new. The plates were joined with hinges, not attached to a foundation. Some have said that it might have been covered with linen. This is very unlikely. Though it might not have been worn in battle there is nothing about it that would prevent it from being so used.

Thanks dan!

I'll pass it on.

Travis

[hoplite14gr]

more info on Philips armor on hilip II Macedon New Helmet
Check the postings of Comerus and my answers.
Regards

[Dan Howard]

The tomb is unlikely to be of Philip II. The alleged injuries seem to have been wishful thinking. While the greaves might be of different sizes, there is the problem that they are both for the right leg. Examination of the skeletal remains suggest that the bones were burnt after the flesh was gone. This didn't happen with Philip II, but Philip III was cremated several years after his death.

[hoplite14gr]

The subject of Philips tomb has been spread anong various threads.
I have read various peoples reservations and I have also mine about their opinion too.
What I know for fact is that M. Andronikos did his dmanest to ensure the cooperation not only of Greek but also of the Scotland Yard forensic experts. Nothing of the alleged after burial cremation was proved and the wounds were said to be "not incompatible with historical records".
Are we going to "conspiracy theory" discussions?
Kind regards

[Duncan Head]

Well, I've just got my copy of Jarva - via abebooks.co.uk, from Good Books in Vienna, who are still listing it on abebooks so may have some more copies.

He does indeed argue that the "composite" cuirass with shoulder-yoke and pteryges was made both in leather and in linen versions, and that the leather was the original style, while linen became more popular later on. He identifies the leather version as the spolas.

Jarva bases this partly on the passage from Pollux previously mentioned in this thread, which he quotes - Pollux says basically that the spolas is a thorax made of leather which hangs from the shoulders. (That seems to scupper the idea that the spolas isn't armour!) He also argues that some of the artistic evidence suggests leather.

I haven't yet found out what he thinks the early references to linothorax refer to, if they don't mean the shoulder-yoke cuirass.

I'll try to post more detailed arguments, and the full Pollux quote, in due course.

cheers,
Duncan