Linothorax again

[hoplite14gr]

Well evidence so far are: Bronze age linothorax 15 layers-Theba arsenal in Greece. Homer talks about this kind of armor too. So linothorax wasd made of linen-that certain.
Spollas is mentioned in Thykidides, Xenophon. They do not specify what type of armor is this exactly though.
So here come pictorial evidence and a lot of specultion.
Hoplite departure scenes show men with apron-like piece of cloth or leather hanging from the waist.
Tyrins frescoes show "light" infantry with leather pteryges apron suspended by the shoulder.
Others still claim that it was leathe armor.
In my opiinon there is enough evidence to clear the fact that linothorax was linen but spollas in absence of conclusive evidence is open to specultation.
Kind regards

[Dan Howard]

I agree completely with Stefanos except to suggest that it is impossible to tell from iconographical evidence whether an item was made from leather or not. There is also the fragment of layered linen found at Mycenae. The Thebes find makes it more likely that this fragment was also from a linothorax.

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks Dan,
I agree with you comment about evidence from pottery.
Osprey "Greek Hoplite" went as far to suggest that spollas was thick felt but unless the troops were doing winter operations (very slim chance!) I cannot accept that given Greek hot summers.
Kind regards

[Jason Hoffman]

Im with Dan, you look at enough pictures, study them in detail and you eventually work out what you are looking at, the more you do it the better you get at it.

My research is coming to an end and I have drawn for myself some very interesting conclusions.

MHO, the linothorax can be traced continuously through greek art for about 500 years, it goes through distinct phases of design and construction, I think leather was only used in late linothorax as a backing for scales, not a protective layer in its own right, The Spolas has no relation to the Linothorax and I feel that its interpretation as a peice of specificly design body armour is erronious. (this is not to say it would not be used as such when it was needed)

I have started fleshing out my thesis / book (it is already out to 20 pages and i have not even started talking about construction, effectivness or history! hopefully it should be ready in about six months. (as long as I can get time between lesson planning, marking, and filling out peices of paper for the education dept).

[Anonymous]

Yet another teacher who doesn't work from 9-3:30!

[Jason Hoffman]

everybody's a comedian, I have owned a seven day 12 hour a day business, been an infantry soldier, managed a pest control company and worked at several others, being a teacher is easily the hardest job i have ever had.

[Anonymous]

I've had the job, too. What did you think my post meant?

[Jason Hoffman]

Sorry Paul, Im just so used to everybody having a stab.

Jason

[Robert Vermaat]

Good for both of you guys. A laudes each for listening before bickering.

[Peroni]

A few authors mention a fragment of linen 14 layers thick found in a myceanen tomb (Grave V)

I may be covering old ground here, but here goes..

As a Roman reenactor, (forgive my ignorance of the Greek world) I have a question regarding the Linothorax..

Surely the vastly time consuming and labour-intensive method of creating enough linen to make garments would make the cost of making such a defence hellish expensive? We all know how expensive it was for a Roman cloak/tunic etc.

With the amount of animals slaughtered for food as well as for hides, would it not be more cost effective and economic regarding man-hours to make the garment from leather and cover it in the more expensive linen fabric?

It would certainly be as robust if more than one layer of leather were used and still look as
Aesthetically pleasing and ‘expensive’

Regards,

[hoplite14gr]

Bronze Age Greece had better economy than Classical Greece even verticalized production. Linen could be produced in big quantities or even imported. Possibly linothorax shaw greater use when the Palace calture colapsed and copper became more expensive.
As for Classical Greece we cannot rule out the possibility that small city state hoplites were mostly armed like "Ekdromoi" = helmet, shield and no armor.
Maritime powers (i.e. Athens, Corinth, Aegina) or leagues (Beotian Thessalian, Pellpenessian) controlling large tracts of good land could have better equiped hoplites. Producing the staff was not issue. Manhours to make it fine raised the cost. But linothorax could be coarse with only the inner layer fine for comfort and the outer layer if you were a rich exibitionist.
Art usually shows the idealised picture not reality.
Kind regards

[Dan Howard]

One might also ask why Homer specifically calls it a linothorax if it wasn't made of linen.

[Peroni]

Thanks for the information.

One might also ask why Homer specifically calls it a linothorax if it wasn't made of linen.

I'm being devil's advocate now.. Maybe because it looked like linen (even if the core was leather?)

Regards

[Matthew Amt]

I may be covering old ground here, but here goes..

Yeah, we fought a long one about this on The Phalanx yahoo list last year. Heck, dig back through the first 11 pages of this discussion and you'll probably find most of it. Mostly it's a lot of assumptions about what life was like 2500 years ago!

Surely the vastly time consuming and labour-intensive method of creating enough linen to make garments would make the cost of making such a defence hellish expensive?

First, practically everyone back then was involved in the textile industry. Every house had a loom and all the women and kids made thread and fabric, and sometimes the men, too. Clothes were great big pieces of cloth, and wealthier men (i.e., those who served as hoplites) had plenty of clothing. Since only a relatively few men in any area would need a new linorthorax each year, it would not be a huge strain on the system to produce the linen for it. And the coarse, undyed linen for a linothorax would be tons easier to make than the fine decorated fabrics often used for clothing. I don't think it would be as bad as having to replace the family car these days--that almost ruined me last year!

Usually, the gentlemen who served as hoplites don't seem to have been concerned about cost. I can think of dozens of helmets that are cheaper and easier to produce than a Corinthian, and yet the Corinthian was the common style around 500 BC. Frequently very decorated, too! Decorated cuirasses, greaves, shields--that all costs a lot. A few yards of linen is cheap by comparison. Heck, the Greeks seem to have *preferred* doing things the hard way!

We all know how expensive it was for a Roman cloak/tunic etc.

Oh? Papyrus records from the first and second centuries AD seem to show that legionaries were going through 6 to 12 tunics a year. But theirs is a totally different system and economy, no real comparison.

With the amount of animals slaughtered for food as well as for hides, would it not be more cost effective and economic regarding man-hours to make the garment from leather and cover it in the more expensive linen fabric?

But were they eating that much meat? Grain products seem to have been the mainstay of the diet back then. Leather was certainly used for a lot of things. But again, I don't think cheapness and ease of construction was all that big a concern to them.

It would certainly be as robust if more than one layer of leather were used and still look as Aesthetically pleasing and ‘expensive’

Sure, I have no problem with that, and in fact I think it's clear that leather armor was used in some places at some times. But the evidence for the linothorax all points to linen, and we shouldn't inflict our own ideas of "practicality" (or anything else) on the ancients.

Khairete,

Matthew

[Peroni]

Matt, Paul Dan,

Many thanks for the concise responses. Certainly puts my theory of leather to bed.

Regards,