Trireme construction

[Praefectusclassis]

Of course I hate to provide others with material against my statements, but I can be a good guy too <br>
Here ya go:<br>
<img src="http://www.romanarmy.com/RATstuff/Nemiship.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
I still think, but the perspective may be distorted, that this model is more elongated than the plans allow for. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub152.ezboard.com/bgreekarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jasperoorthuys>Jasper Oorthuys</A> at: 11/25/03 10:06<br></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Many thanks, Jasper<br>
but....<br>
<br>
I CANNOT SEE IT!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Huh? It worked yesterday. <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Really curious Jasper,<br>
I've seen the pic this morning but I cannot see it again this evening! Maybe it's a problem of my Internet connection...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Works for me now. This morning and last night it seems like our RA.com server had troubles, but is now ok. <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Nope, gone (and suddenly, there it is again - the BIG picture ).<br>
This her?<br>
<img src="http://perso.club-internet.fr/athanase/Varia/Kircher/images/nemi2.gif" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
[url=http://library.ucsc.edu/slides/decou/lanterns/full/dc1.474.0943r.jpg" target="top]image 1[/url], [url=http://library.ucsc.edu/slides/decou/lanterns/full/dc1.474.0944r.jpg" target="top]image 2.[/url]<br>
<br>
Website about the ships: [url=http://nemiship.multiservers.com/" target="top]Lake Nemi Roman Ship Reconstruction Project - directed by Dianae Lacus[/url]<br>
<br>
An article in Italian: [url=http://www.comunedinemi.it/le_navi.html" target="top]Le navi di Nemi di Marina e Massimo Medici[/url]<br>
<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub152.ezboard.com/bgreekarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 11/26/03 13:52<br></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Many thanks, Robert<br>
I'd lost that site address and was unable of finding it again!<br>
Here they go the reconstructed lines of Nemi I, as published on guido Ucelli's book:<br>
<img src="http://nemiship.multiservers.com/archeo/prof.gif" style="border:0;"/><br>
As Jasper has pointed out, the ship is rather plump. I'm now reviewing my sources on the late Hellenistic giant warships to argue in favour of my idea! <br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Guys, I can't understand why, but your pictures come and go as they please! Gone again, now..<br>
<br>
Mine, on the other hand.. <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

It is definitely the RA.com ISP playing up. Sometimes it takes a few days for a new addition to 'take'. Seems like there are two caches which overwrite eachother. <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Better if we forget about the 'vanishing pic', folks, we are in a risk of making it the subject of this thread!<br>
By the way, Robert, the photo you posted belongs to the second ship, a symmetrical one with four steering oars and a building with stone columns on it .<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Hi all,<br>
<br>
I’ve finally found time to write this, but I’m afraid that everybody will have lost interest on this thread by now!<br>
<br>
The Nemi I ship, as reconstructed on paper by the Italian Navy was 71.3 m long and 20 m wide. The ratio is thus 1:3.5, fairly plump for a conventional warship. For example, the reconstructed trieres ‘Olympias’ is 37 m long and 5.5 m wide, i.e. 1:6.7.<br>
Notwithstanding, it is not in the field of the agile and slender light triremes where I’m looking a place for Nemi I, but in that of the sturdy, wide and slow late Hellenistic hyper-galleys. To a certain extent, maybe the ‘ten’ or even more, they were still manoeuvrable enough as to be used in the Classical ramming fight, but their robustness and width were mainly intended to be used as fighting platforms to hold on their upper decks artillery and marines, ready for boarding other ships. If we follow Lucien Basch’s interpretation (why not?) a building recently excavated at Samothrace housed a scaled down copy of Antigonus Gonatas’ flagship, the Isthmia. It was possibly an ‘eighteen’ (But Pausanias just mentions –I,29,1- that she had ‘decks for nine rows of rowers’), with an approximate ratio length-beam of 1:5. The Isthmia’s actual dimensions are unknown, the ship herself being dedicated to the Gods at Delos, but not so clearly housed inside a building. The gigantic ‘forty’ built by Ptolemy IV was 126 m long and 17.1 m wide (according to Athenaeus’ description in Deipn. 5203e-5204c), which gives the 1:7,37 ratio mentioned by Jasper, notwithstanding the description is far from being clear and he ship can be interpreted as two ‘twenties’ joined together to form a catamaran, being the mentioned beam that of each one of the hulls.<br>
<br>
The scanty recovered traces of Nemi I’s former splendour (Marble and mosaic floor and walls revetments, statues, gilt door and window furnitures) recall that of the Syracusia/Alexandria, the gargantuan merchant ship built by Hieron II (again described by Athenaeus Deipn. 5206e-5209b). But the Syracusia possessed three masts and neither of the two Nemi ships had the slightest trace of having had even a single mast. Rowing is, therefore, the only way of propulsion left for them. Incidentally, the ship Nemi II, with her protruding ‘outrigger’, wearing above a substantial building with stone columns, and her four steering oars, two at the bow and two at the stern, brings to mind the palace-ship again built by Ptolemy IV (Deipn. 5204d-5206c) for cruising along the Nile. The ‘Houseboat’ was longer and narrower than Nemi II (91,5x13,7 m against the approx. 70x20 m of Nemi II) and had mast and sail. Again the steering disposition of Nemi II is only one of the possible explanations for her ‘double prow and double stern’, the other one being her configuration like a catamaran.<br>
<br>
The mid-portion of the ship’s ‘cutwater’ bronze casing has survived and has allowed to reconstruct the forward profile of the bow, which resembles that of a warship. Unfortunately, the forepart of the ship (she was sunk with the bow down the slope, contrarily with what I stated on a previous post!) was already damaged in the fifteenth century, during a unsuccessful raising attempt.<br>
Connolly proposes a minimum beam of 12 m for a ‘sixteen’, outrigger excluded. (This is a good place to recall the impracticability of Nemi I did not seem to have ever possessed an outrigger but if we accept those 12 m for the rowers (something more if there were nine per oar), we’ve still got eight meters free to be used as a solid fighting platform. ‘Solid’ in the sense that it could bear much more load than the two side gangways, over the rowers heads. That is my hypothesis for Nemi I, maybe a ‘sixteen’ or an ‘eighteen’ with two levels of rowers.<br>
<br>
The Nemi ships were surely neither intended to be used in any kind of real combat, nor to fulfil any practical mission. Nevertheless, their hulls were perfectly constructed and protected with tarred woollen canvas0 and lead sheet. The result should satisfy the emperor Caligula, who wanted to replicate famous big ships, but we cannot ascertain the degree of exactitude attained or the simplifications or changes made to meet Caligula’s requirements. We can, rather feebly, put forward that the gilt copper roof tile covers and the marble upper deck were fireproof revetments, but the mosaics and marble & glass opera sectilia on the walls can only be seen as lavish extravagances.<br>
The lead pipes recovered from the wreck were, on their turn, fully utilitarian (if they were not also used to water gardens and fill ponds onboard, like in the Syracusia!). There were two bilge pumps, fore and aft, and the water run through piping towards a central reservoir, made of lead faced concrete, and from there, to the port and starboard sides outlets. Bronze valves, of which one was recovered, served to close or open hose pipelines at will.<br>
Remains of at least two revolving circular platforms were found in the bow area, one ca. 60 cm in diameter and the other, ca. one meter. They could withstand considerable weights but the mission they fulfilled remains uncertain. Their position near the bow could suggest rotating emplacements for artillery. Maybe an arrow shooting catapult could be rotated at will without difficulty thanks to its universal joint but it is not clear if stone-shooting ballistae possessed such device and would have greatly benefited from a gyratory base. Evidently, the size of the surviving platforms does not allow for something really big on them.<br>
<br>
Naturally, it comes to mind that no trace of a bronze ram, artillery elements or even something related to oaring or a single oar were recovered from Nemi I when she was excavated. I can only adduce in my support that both ships did not sink by far ‘with all hands’.<br>
Below Nemi I were found the remains of a sunken boat, still loaded with sacked pavement bricks. If looters (‘official’ or ‘unofficial’ ones) were robbing almost valueless clay slabs from the still floating vessel, we can reasonably suppose that she had already been ‘relieved’ from most of her movable metallic fittings.<br>
After the wreckage, there were some recorded attempts of recovering, at least since mid XVth century, and being Nemi I the more shallowly sunk of the pair (5-12 m), she received mostly the ‘attentions’ of the divers. All of them ended in the partial destruction of some part of the ship with the extracted objects finishing in some collection at the best. The unrecorded explorations have been surely much more and we can place many of them in Roman times, when the memory of the sunken ships was still fresh and some superstructures could be still above water level.<br>
<br>
Aitor<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Maybe it's important to note that Lake Nemi is a closed lake in an old volcano. Perhaps there was very little incentive to add any sort of propulsion at all. Just enough rowers (I'm not against that idea) for manoevering the ship would do? <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Hi Jasper,<br>
<br>
Yes, totally plausible. That's the kind of thing I was referring to as 'simplifications'. What about the rest?<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

To be honest: no idea what that silly emperor dreamt up. What's the point of setting up catapults on a pleasure barge? Chucking out unwanted senators? <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Well, Jasper, nor do I know what was inside Caligula’s head (better that way, surely ) but I tend to think that lake Nemi ships were not ‘pleasure barges’. If you wanted to go yachting orgy after orgy, maybe the waters around Capri would be more adequate. Nevertheless, lake Nemi was a mysterious sacred place in Roman times, devoted to Diana. Caligula identified Diana with his sister Drusilla, therefore, the ships could fit better with a present/sacred offering.<br>
Why catapults? (I insist that no definite trace of artillery was recovered from lake Nemi, it is just one idea) Perhaps because the model from which the ship was replicated possessed them. I include here the complete description of Hieron’s Syracusia, as appears on Athenaeus’ ‘Philosophers at dinner’:<br>
<br>
"The ship was designed along the lines of a merchant ship [or possibly designed for 20 rowers in each bank of oars"], but had three gangways. The lowest, used for handling cargo, could be reached by a number of companionways. The second was designed to provide access to those wishing to ach their cabins. The last and highest was for soldiers. Along the middle gangway, along both sides of the ship, were 30 cabins for the men, each big enough for four couches. The owner's cabin was big enough for 15 couches and had three chambers of three-couch size; the aft kitchen served these. All had their floors laid with mosaic in many different kinds of stones, in which was recounted marvellously the whole story of the Iliad. The fittings, ceilings, and doors were all carefully worked. Along the uppermost gangway there was an exercise area and promenades laid out in accordance with the scale of the ship. Along the promenades were gardens of all sorts, wonderfully luxuriant with plants, which were watered by hidden lead pipes. There were also arbours of white ivy and vines planted in large pots filled with earth and irrigated in the same manner as the gardens. These arbours shaded the promenades. Next to these was built a shrine to Aphrodite, of three-couch size, with a floor made of agate and all the other most sought-after stones of Sicily. The walls and ceiling were panelled with cypress, the doors made of ivory and cedar. It was splendidly furnished with paintings, statues, and a service of drinking vessels.<br>
Adjacent was a reading room, of five-couch size, the walls and doors made of boxwood. There was a library there, and in the ceiling there was a hemispherical dome imitating the sundial of Achradina. There was also a bath of three-couch size with three bronze tubs and a wash-basin of variegated Tauromenian stone holding fifty gallons.<br>
There were also other accommodations for passengers and for those keeping watch over the bilge pumps. In addition, there were 10 stables along each side, and nearby were kept their fodder and the belongings of the riders and their slaves. There was a covered water tank at the bow which held 20,000 gallons, made of planks and pitched canvas. Next to it was a fish tank made of planks and lead sheeting; it was filled with sea water, and many fish were kept alive in it. Beams projected from both sides of the boat at equal intervals; on them were mounted wood bins, bread ovens and roasting ovens, grain mills, and other services. A row of supports shaped like giants, nine feet high, ran around the outside of the ship, all spaced at equal intervals to support the superstructure and triglyphs. Furthermore, the whole ship was decorated with appropriate paintings.<br>
There were eight towers equal in height to the ship's deck structures, two at the stern, another two at the prow, and the rest amidships. Each of these was fitted out with two booms terminating in small compartments from which stones could be dropped on any of the enemy that sailed beneath. Four fullyarmed young marines were stationed on each of the towers, along with two archers; the whole interior of the towers was full of stones and missiles. A raised platform with parapet and battlements was built across the ship on supports. On it was mounted a catapult capable of throwing a stone weighing 180 pounds o spear 18 feet long. Archimedes designed the device. lt could throw either type of projectile 600 feet. Nearby were protective screens made of thick leather straps and hung from bronze chains. Two stone-carrying booms were hung from end of the three masts, and grappling hooks or masses of lead could be let go attackers. An iron palisade encircled the ship as a protection against boarders, and all around it were hooked iron projectiles which, fired from catapults, could fasten on to enemy boats and drag them into striking range. Sixty young, fully armed marines were stationed on either side of the ship and an equal number around the masts with the stone-dropping booms. There were also men in the bronze crow's-nest structure at the masthead: three on the mainmast, then two and one respectively on the other two masts. Slaves kept these men supplied with stones and missiles by hauling them up to the fortified stations in baskets on lines rigged over pulleys.<br>
There were four wooden and eight iron anchors. As for the masts, the timbers for the fore and mizzen were found easily, but that for the mainmast was found with difficulty by a swineherd in the mountains of Bruttium. The engineer Philias of Tauromenium brought it down to the sea. Although the bilge was very deep, it was pumped dry by one man using a water-screw, an invention of Archimedes.<br>
The ship was named Syracusia, but when Hieron sent her off, he renamed her Alexandria. As ship's boats it had, first, a merchantman-like vessel of 3,000 talents burden, with a full set of oars, then some fishing-type vessels of 1,500 talents burden, and some small boats besides. The complement of the crew was not less than...[the number has been lost]. Besides those mentioned above there were 600 at the bow ready for orders.<br>
Sixty thousand measures of grain were loaded on board, 10,000 jars of Sicilian pickled fish, 20,000 talents of wool, and 20,000 talents of other cargo, besides this there were the provisions for the crew. When Hieron heard that, of all the harbours the ship [was to call at], some could not accommodate it at all and others only with great risk, he decided to send it to Alexandria as a present for King Ptolemy, for there was a shortage of grain in Egypt. He did so, the ship was sailed down to Alexandria, and there it was hauled out on land."<br>
<img src="http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/rowing/trireme/trieris.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
The more I read this description, the more I think that it fits well to Nemi I. Even it is possible that Syracusia had had oars, from the corrupt first phrase. Therefore, it is clearly possible that Nemi I was not a replica of a warship, given its wide beam. Anyway, as you pointed out, masts would have been superfluous for sailing in the lake and I would add that if the Syracusia seems to have been larger than Nemi I’s 70x20 m, perhaps the latter was somewhat scaled down by Caligula’s naval architects in order to give it more room to manoeuvre in the limited space.<br>
Those of lake Nemi weren’t the only juggernauts ordered by Caligula. His obelisk-carrying ship was 100x20 m!<br>
<p></p><i></i>