Armour Flexibility

[Achilleus]

Hello guys,

I have a question I was hoping some you could help answer, esp. those of you who own and use reconstructed Roman armour and as such have experience with it:

How flexible is Roman segmented armour ? (Lorica Segmentata specifically) Does it impede movement in any way ? Are stabbing and slashing movements made more difficult, like an overhand strike ?

According to what I've read the segmented armour didn't impede movement at all, whilst providing superior protection to chain mail from pretty much any sort of attack. Is this true ?

Many thanks in advance for any answers

Kind regards,
Kristian

[Draconis]

In SCA combat, I haven't used it but have seen it used and its pretty flexible. For protection from a blow, I would way prefer it to chainmail. Chainmail is good protection from a slice, but can be penetrated by a stab. Overlapping plates will better protect from slices, stabs and crushing blows. The plates spread the shock of impact over a wider area than chainmail and will lessen the possibilities of broken bones and ruptured organs. Even better if you have a padded gambeson or arming shirt underneath. For me, Lorica Si, chainmail No

[Dan Howard]

A few layers of quilted cloth will stop a sword cut so there is nothing special about mail or segmentata doing the same. Properly riveted mail will stop any stab that can be delivered by a hand weapon. You'd need a heavy bow at close range to pierce most types of mail. Segmentata provides better resistance to percussion weapons and blunt trauma though the susceptibility of mail to this seems to have been overrated. Mail covers a lot more of the body than segmentata; if you want protection on the armpit, stomach, groin, etc then segmentata is no use at all. Mail is heavier, but you'd expect it to be since it covers more of the body. Properly fitted segmentata doesn't hinder movement much but mail is the most flexible metallic armour ever invented.

[Mark]

Your going to get some minor impediment to movement with almost any armor you wear. The segmentata (assuming it fits well) gives you a lot of protection without significantly slowing you down or impeding your movement. Chainmail will stop most arrows or a slashing cut, however it's not going to be as effective against a solid thrust with a sword or spear. The force of the blow isn't distributed over a wider area, like it would be with a segmentata or a even squamata (scale.) If I was going on a forced road march in full armor I'd prefer chain, if someone was going to be swinging a real sword or club at me I'd go with the segmentata, if it was a mix of both I'd go with squamata.

[Alanus]

Hello guys,

I have a question I was hoping some you could help answer, esp. those of you who own and use reconstructed Roman armour and as such have experience with it:

How flexible is Roman segmented armour ? (Lorica Segmentata specifically) Does it impede movement in any way ? Are stabbing and slashing movements made more difficult, like an overhand strike?

I have a set of segmentata (made by Hanwai). It's designed like other forms of segmentata, and I was curious if it could be used by an archer like myself. Wrong! It was too restrictive, so I removed the three lower segments and rounded off the remaining ones. It actually looked fairly cool!-- BUT it's just a tad restrictive, not as bad as before yet not flexible like scale or mail.

Someday, I hope to make (or have produced by Suhel) a leather tunic in the combo of scale (for elbow-length arm pieces), plates (for chest & shoulders in Eastern fashion), and lamellar for the two below-the-waist pieces. However, segmentata is not restrictive for "over the head" sword swings (the pieces simply lift) or for (more Romanish) sword up-thrusts. :grin:

[arklore70]

Roman armor is really quite flexible. Out at Lafe we did a military skills event and I do not recall any of the guys wearing segmentata having any issues using the two bows we had out there. Granted, we were not doing rushed shots and were taking out time, but none of us had issues.

I have been able to do a full range of exercises in Roman armor and might be crazy enough to try "the murph" cross fit workout with proper motivation.

There is a article here: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html

The bottom line up front was that essentially it was near impossible generate enough force/energy with a single hand held weapon to penetrate a properly riveted hamata. It also goes on to address arrows, lances, and two handed weapons.

Whether segmentata, hamata, squamata; Roman armor met the needs of its soldiers to fight their style of tactical combat for multiple generations. Had it not, I doubt it would have invested so much in it. Now whether that makes it the optimum armor for individualized combat or SCA combat I'll defer to others on.

[Achilleus]

Many thanks for the answers guys!

So from what I understand the Lorica Segmentata is a very flexible piece of armour and does not impede any melee moves you might make, but it can be abit tricky to use with a bow sometimes because you have to bring the string & hand right up to your cheek ?

Also regarding the origin of the Lorica Segmentata's adoptation, would it be wrong to assume that it was adopted mainly to counter the heavy blows encountered when fighting enemies such as the Dacians ? Perhaps the segmented Manica arm protection was adopted after these encounters as-well ?

Regarding the appearance and disappearance of the Lorica Segementata, it seems to coincide perfectly with the rise & decline of the Roman Empire. Could it be that it was simply too expensive to make & maintain ? I've been told that manufacturing and fitting plate armour (Ferrous plate in this case), requires better skilled armourers and more advanced tools to achieve than with chain mail, esp. when you have to field a type of armour in large scale. In short, chain mail could be made in the field, whilst the plate armour required a skilled smith to make.

So basically the Romans in the end, as the empire began to decline, couldn't afford to equip their men in large scale with the Lorica Segmentata anymore, and instead reverted back to mail armour which was a lot cheaper to field?

[Dan Howard]

So from what I understand the Lorica Segmentata is a very flexible piece of armour and does not impede any melee moves you might make, but it can be abit tricky to use with a bow sometimes because you have to bring the string & hand right up to your cheek ?

There are illustrations showing archers from various cultures shooting from the chest.

Also regarding the origin of the Lorica Segmentata's adoptation, would it be wrong to assume that it was adopted mainly to counter the heavy blows encountered when fighting enemies such as the Dacians ?

Mail is easily capable of stopping any weapon the Dacians had. Segmentata was just a good method of producing munitions armour for lots of troops. Given the available technology, it was likely the quickest way to make metal armour once the infrastructure was in place.

Perhaps the segmented Manica arm protection was adopted after these encounters as-well ?

Some writers have said this but it is pure speculation with little to back it up. Mail is more suitable for arm protection than segmented plate - it is more flexible and provides better coverage.

Regarding the appearance and disappearance of the Lorica Segementata, it seems to coincide perfectly with the rise & decline of the Roman Empire. Could it be that it was simply too expensive to make & maintain ?

Segmentata is quicker and likely cheaper to make than mail. The Romans used mail before, during, and after segmentata - despite it being the most time consuming and likely most expensive type of armour to make.

Your thesis depends on the assumption that segmentata was "superior" to mail. That hasn't been demonstrated. IMO mail is the superior armour. It saw continuous use by virtually every metal using culture on the planet for the best part of two thousand years and was preferred by elite fighters even when other types of armour, such as scale and lamellar, were available.

IMO one reason why segmentatas stopped being used was because the fabricas developed techniques that made mail easier to mass produce. Segmentata became obsolete.

[richard robinson]

Dan
I would prefer to be hit while wearing any form of plate armour over mail, even mail with padding underneath, (and this does not read "while wearing mail"). Every time.
regards
Richard

[Dan Howard]

A suit of plate - definitely. Segmentata is far from that since it offers no protection at all to the stomach, groin, armpit, etc. I've been hit pretty hard with baseball bats, cricket bats, blunt swords while wearing mail and most of the time you hardly feel it. The problem is when "bony" spots are hit - skull, elbow, collar bone, etc. You really need rigid protection or lots of padding in these areas.

Each armour type has its pros and cons regarding protection. But when you consider all of the other advantages of mail and the shortcomings of segmentata, mail comes out in front IMO. The only clear advantage segmentata has is speed of construction. If mass production techniques can close the gap enough between mail and segmentata becomes less viable as an armour type.

[Achilleus]

I gotta say you seem awfully fond of mail Howard ^^

I am very familiar with mail armour however, been doing medieval reenactment for years, and I own two shirts of riveted mail made of steel.

Mail is easily capable of stopping any weapon the Dacians had.

hock:

I gotta admit that, based on my own experiences with mail, I am very sceptical of that claim Howard. Maybe mail made from high quality steel like my own has a tiny chance, but even then I'd no doubt break bones and likely even die from internal damage if subjected to a heavy blow from an axe or a falx.

As for ancient iron mail even having a chance of stopping such weapons, sorry but that seems highly unlikely.

The metal plates of the segmentata however must have been more effective against such blows, esp. around the shoulder area where I understand the ferrous plates were thicker and overlapped each other.

Segmentata is far from that since it offers no protection at all to the stomach, groin, armpit, etc.

As far as I can see the Segmentata offers great protection at the stomach area, definitely better than mail, so I'm abit baffled at you saying it offers no protection to that area at all ?

Your thesis depends on the assumption that segmentata was "superior" to mail. That hasn't been demonstrated. IMO mail is the superior armour. It saw continuous use by virtually every metal using culture on the planet for the best part of two thousand years and was preferred by elite fighters even when other types of armour, such as scale and lamellar, were available.

Hmm... I was under the impression that in terms of protection the segmentata indeed has been demonstrated to be superior to mail, seems pretty logical too seeing as plate effectively disperses the force of any impact over a wide area. Mail doesn't do this, and as such I've also been hurt quite a few times sparring wearing mine, and we're definitely not trying to kill each other either ^^

That's also one of the reasons a guy wearing plate armour is scary as heck to be up against, cause you know that every solid hit he gets on you is going to hurt whilst he's likely not even gonna feel most of the hits you get on him in the heat of things.

Also regarding mail being the prefered type of armour for elite fighters, that can't be right, atleast I know that in medieval times the elites prefered plate armour over mail

Even so mail was ofcourse more abundant because it was cheaper to make, seeing as opposed to plate armour you didn't need a skilled smith to make a shirt of mail, or a large furnace. You could have thousands of slaves make shirts of mail, you can't do the same with plate armour. I suspect this is main the reason that the Lorica Segmentata fell out use with the Romans in the end, plate armour simply proving too difficult and expensive to mass produce as the wealth of the empire started to decline.

Heck even in medieval times where the manufacture of plate armour was far in advance of anything the romans had, any form of plate armour was still more expensive to make than mail, so I can only imagine how expensive it must have been to manufacture plate armour for the romans many centuries earlier. To me it seems obvious that the Roman state's loss of wealth in the 4th century AD lowered the budget of the military and with it the means of supplying the troops with the most expensive equipment.

That seems to be the most logical explanation if you ask me atleast

[Mark Hygate]

Whilst I don't have any issue with a lot that has been discussed so far, I would raise a hand for an element or two that doesn't seem to have figured yet....

Namely the maintenance of the armour once produced and also the overall 'defence design', of which the armour is just a part.

I understand that, not only is chain-mail easier to produce and can be done in quantity more easily, but is it not also easier to repair? A well maintained and serviced set of chain-mail can last for a very long time and individual links or small sections can be repaired/replaced with only access to a few heated rivets.

The use of Segmentata not only coincided with, practicably, the high water-mark of the Empire when the Arms Factories were able to produce the necessary quality parts, but it also required less metal overall and covered less areas, because it was combined with the very covering large rectangular Scutum and superior helmet designs. Given the way it is believed the legionaries were expected to fight: very close-order; over-lapping shields; and mutual-support; and only to the front - then the shield covered a lot of the required area, with the helmet and, relatively minimal, Segmentata covering only those areas that would then be exposed.

Hamata on the other hand, or the similar Squamata, covered much larger areas and was therefore much more suitable for cavalry who would be subjected to incoming threats from more directions; or for troops like archers with much smaller, or even no, shields.

M2CW

[Dan Howard]

Here we go again. The mail imported from India and Pakistan today has little in common with historical mail. None of the mail tests people see on TV and youtube are relevant
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189

Read the link that has already been posted above. It addresses the protective capacity of mail and its cost relative to plate. It took years to research and is fully cited and referenced.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html

A few random observations.

I like segmentata a lot as an armour type. It is an ingenious invention.

Segmentata generally stops at about the navel - the same as a breastplate. Below that point (stomach and groin) there is no protection.

The amount of time required just to produce enough iron wire for a hamata would exceed the time required to completely finish most types of armour.

Segmentata stopped being used around the same time as the Roman fabricas started being taken over by the state.

Even after plate started being used at the end of the medieval period, mail still cost more to produce.

[Nathan Ross]

The use of Segmentata not only coincided with, practicably, the high water-mark of the Empire when the Arms Factories were able to produce the necessary quality parts

State arms factories were only established under Diocletian. In fact, the army of the tetrarchic and Constantinian period campaigned continuously, and usually victoriously, for fifty years against every enemy Rome had and in the process restored the empire to something close to its 'high water mark'. And they (probably) didn't use segmentata!

But as you say, the change was probably connected with fighting style, and also possibly with the increased mobility of legions and vexillations - if you're away from home base for months or years on end, you want a type of armour that's easy to repair on the move...

Depictions of centurions, when armoured at all, show mail or scale rather than segmentata - this suggests that those able to afford it chose mail, and it was therefore the better quality and more desirable armour.

As Dan says, the state arms factories of the later empire may have found means the mass-produce mail far more cheaply. (Actually, I've wondered before whether these fabricae may have been able to mass-produce a cheap form of the muscle cuirass as well, and this was the 'munitions armour' of the later empire, replacing segmentata... but that's straying off the topic!)

[Achilleus]

Dan Howard,

My shirts aren't from india, they were made in Germany and the rings are hammered as-well

Protection wise I really have no doubt that the Segmentata was superior to any form of mail, it simply must have been knowing how plate resists attack better than mail. But for a large army such as that of Rome, chain mail would've no doubt been a better choice in terms of cost efficiency, which is obviously also why chain mail was used for so long, even during the late medieval ages where plate armour reached its peak.

Also whilst the time of contructing a shirt of chain mail takes longer than a plate cuirass for example, producing plate was still more expensive thanks to the expertise and equipment needed to do so, which was true in the medieval period and therefore also must have been the case in ancient times when the small efficient blast furnaces of the middle ages didnt exist. Also slaves could and no doubt were used to produce chain mail, further reducing the cost, where'as the same couldn't be achieved with plate armour which required a skilled smith. And as mentioned plate armour also requires more maintenance than chain mail in the field, making it even more expensive.

So whilst the segmentata offers superior protection in the covered areas, and was lighter than a mail suit, it was more expensive, high maintenance and didn't offer protection to as many areas as mail did. So in a sense mail was naturally the superior armour.

I have to say though that, based on what I've seen and heard lately, if I was to go in a battle I'd prefer to have on the Lorica Segmentata, esp. after having realized how flexible it is. But if I had to go on a 10 year campaign, I'd probably choose mail just so I didn't have to deal with the nightmare of constant maintenance the segmentata would've required. I'd just pray to the gods I didn't ever get hit by a falx or axe in the shoulder area, cause that would suck whilst wearing mail :S