Roman camps UK - is there a database or list?

[John1]

Hi Steve, are you intending to use this as a predictive mapping exercise? seems like an exciting way/subject to go hunting using your techniques.

[Steve Kaye]

Hi Steve, are you intending to use this as a predictive mapping exercise? seems like an exciting way/subject to go hunting using your techniques.

Hello John, yes is the short answer. The longer answer requires that I know what is possible using the readily available datasets - not sure about that yet.

Hopefully a broad question such as, "Where were the marching/temporary camps in southern England probably located" might be answerable.

And there may be some obvious rules governing such a search that could be formulated, e.g. camps are always located within X meters of river; camp locations at the intersection of rivers are preferentially selected; camps never located at cross-roads (I'm still thinking about this one) etc.

Early days ........

Regards, Steve Kaye

[John1]

I think you're about to start mining a rich vein.

When I read Ray Selkirk, "On the Trail of the Legions" it seemed that river settlements/forts would make a great topic for GIS filtering, but time and skill sets just aren't available for the next few years.

Good luck

[Nathan Ross]

camps never located at cross-roads (I'm still thinking about this one)

Interesting - what are your thoughts?

I wondered a while ago whether the shortage of marching camps in southern England might be due to many of these sites later becoming towns, with the remains overlaying and obscuring the earlier traces. Does that seem plausible?

[ValentinianVictrix]

camps never located at cross-roads (I'm still thinking about this one)

Interesting - what are your thoughts?

I wondered a while ago whether the shortage of marching camps in southern England might be due to many of these sites later becoming towns, with the remains overlaying and obscuring the earlier traces. Does that seem plausible?

There is more than an element in truth to this Nathan as down here in darkest Kent many of the forts became permanent garrisons which then turned into towns. However, having said that Dover castle stands on the site of the original Roman fort, as possibly does Rochester Castle. Richborough and Reculver Roman forts still survive as does the one at Garlinge near Margate that practically no one knows about (called by locals 'Dent de Lion' castle). There is the Roman fort/port remains at Lympne in Kent plus still visible a section of the old Roman sea wall defences. There are a whole load of Roman marching fort remains around the Folkestone area, several appear to have been built on Iron Age hill top forts that the Romans took over. I believe the original Rye and Hastings forts were built over the Roman ones, as is the case in Canterbury.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

camps never located at cross-roads (I'm still thinking about this one)

Interesting - what are your thoughts?

I wondered a while ago whether the shortage of marching camps in southern England might be due to many of these sites later becoming towns, with the remains overlaying and obscuring the earlier traces. Does that seem plausible?

Certainly. One of the camps north of Bennachie is half covered by a town..

[John1]

starting to stray a bit off topic but I hope this is of some interest in reflecting the coverage of earlier sites by towns.

This piece is an attempt to determine if the Roman administrative centre of Lutudarum is in fact beneath the Streets of Wirksworth;

http://www.conferencesdirect.co.uk/clact...udarum.pdf

[John1]

I also seem to recall John Waite thought he had identified a couple of camps at High Cross (Watling Street Fosse Way cross roads) in his Boudicca book. Haven't been able to spot them myself though.

[Nathan Ross]

As an aside, what sort of archaeological traces would be thought admissible as evidence of a possible marching camp?

How about a straight ditch, 7ft 6 inches wide by 3ft deep, containing sherds of early Roman pottery (1st-2nd century), close to a Roman road?

[John1]

sounds like you already ahve one, Dunstable?

[Steve Kaye]

camps never located at cross-roads (I'm still thinking about this one)

Interesting - what are your thoughts?

Nathan, not sure. I noticed it while just looking at maps - no measurements yet. However, John1 mentioned High Cross which appears to be a classic example. The crossing point is on the high ground but the camps (e.g. Wigston Parva fort) are at least 1.5km away (they have to be to find sufficient water). So, as a first guess, I'd speculate that the crossing points keep to the high, dry, passable ground while the camps are located as close as the water supply will allow. Nothing outstanding about that. The trick will be in formulating the rules from all the datasets I'll examine to then 'predict' where unknown camps/forts might be located. And the rules have to be derived from the accurate locations of the known camps and military roads - hence my asking about data sources.

I wondered a while ago whether the shortage of marching camps in southern England might be due to many of these sites later becoming towns, with the remains overlaying and obscuring the earlier traces. Does that seem plausible?

I think it is true to say that idea has been around for a while except that you mention marching camps when most might say permanent forts (of one size or another) or mansiones. On the other hand, did the marching camps locations, over time, gain mansiones and then villages/towns? I suspect they might, after all, camps and mansiones are sited to support the traveller. Therefore some common features are distance travelled, available water, sheltering topography, flat ground, deeper soil than the surrounding area (different reasons though) etc.. Of course, there may be at least twice as many mansiones than camps on any stretch of road. But there are different rules for different areas, e.g. in Scotland a marching camp often does not become a civilian habitation (exception might be farms) while in southern England one could argue they would. The reason is related to the historical purpose for the camp and its location (usually wind and rain swept, midge ridden and generally aweful in Scotland). The bad news, for what I want to do, is that most of the known camps are in Scotland and Wales, i.e. just what level of localised bias will be introduced by these camps into the search for southern English camps? Can it be removed?

So much to ponder - fun though!

ValentinianVictrix, I thought the Dent de Lion in Garlinge was 15th century. Has new work dug up some foundations?

Regards, Steve Kaye

[ValentinianVictrix]

'ValentinianVictrix, I thought the Dent de Lion in Garlinge was 15th century. Has new work dug up some foundations?'

You need to visit it for yourself. What's left is the remains of an obvious Norman keep that has been built on top of the the lower half of a Roman fort. It's the most bizarre location as its on totally flat ground, you would expect this type of fortification to be on a mound or hill.

[Nathan Ross]

sounds like you already ahve one, Dunstable?

Ah, you've second-guessed me! mile:

But, yes - not wanting to warm any old chestnuts. It's very tentative, of course - the ditch could be any number of things, and I believe it's usually suggested as part of the town fortification. But I wonder whether Roman towns in southern England had fortifications at this early date, and even whether Dunstable existed as a town in the 1st century - posting station yes, town... don't know. It's a bit wide for a marching camp ditch (which average 5-6ft width I think), but also wide for a drainage or foundation trench... Hmm.

Mainly I'm interested because it's exactly where I expected a camp to be!

I suspect they might, after all, camps and mansiones are sited to support the traveller. Therefore some common features are distance travelled, available water, sheltering topography, flat ground, deeper soil than the surrounding area

I would think there'd be a lot of criteria in common - but that's one of the reasons your study could be of great interest.

Are any of the camps you've located sited on chalk upland? This is more common in southern England, after all, and tends to be the higher and more strategically important terrain. How would this affect the need for water supply? Could wells provide the required water?

I may as well mention at this point that I've been in touch with the Manshead Archaeological Society concerning the Dunstable site, and they tell me that nineteen Roman or pre-Roman wells have been found in the vicinity of the old town, with two working aquifers - they estimate this could have supplied sufficent water for a force of c10,000 men. I'm not sure whether your water-supply calculations include subterranean sources or not. I would guess that most of time it would take far too long to dig a well!

Another point, about ditches - I recall a mention here before that a number of known Roman marching camps appear to have either no ditches, or a very cursory one. The rampart was the important thing.

[Steve Kaye]

'ValentinianVictrix, I thought the Dent de Lion in Garlinge was 15th century. Has new work dug up some foundations?'

You need to visit it for yourself. What's left is the remains of an obvious Norman keep that has been built on top of the the lower half of a Roman fort. It's the most bizarre location as its on totally flat ground, you would expect this type of fortification to be on a mound or hill.

I'm a little confused - not unusual. The Pastscape entry here only talks of a 15C gatehouse.

Can you point to the supporting evidence for the Roman fort?

Regards, Steve Kaye

[Steve Kaye]

Are any of the camps you've located sited on chalk upland? This is more common in southern England, after all, and tends to be the higher and more strategically important terrain. How would this affect the need for water supply? Could wells provide the required water?

Nathan, you're running faster than me = the work has not started yet, still gathering the data. However, from preliminary investigation of some camps and roads, I think it true to say that the need for an adequate water supply is paramount. Even road routing seems to be controlled by ensuring the water supply at stop points. But, I need to conduct the work, collate evidence and then write it up - months away yet.

I may as well mention at this point that I've been in touch with the Manshead Archaeological Society concerning the Dunstable site, and they tell me that nineteen Roman or pre-Roman wells have been found in the vicinity of the old town, with two working aquifers - they estimate this could have supplied sufficent water for a force of c10,000 men. I'm not sure whether your water-supply calculations include subterranean sources or not. I would guess that most of time it would take far too long to dig a well!

Very interesting, thank you. My water-supply calculations for the marching legions does not include the use of wells for a number of reasons.

1) Wells are typically dug by an indigenous population to serve their immediate needs. Apparently new wells are only dug when populations expand, existing wells start to fail or become polluted. However, there may be a small surplus of wells - old polluted wells that clear themselves and new wells waiting to be brought into service. The main point is that the supply of water from wells rarely exceeds (by much) the needs of the local people.

2) Following from 1), a newly arriving legionary force, at a site primarily served by wells, would have to dig new ones but that takes a variable amount of time (days - because you can only get at a maximum 2-3 diggers into a well at any one time). And, you then usually have to wait days/weeks for the well to 'settle' and become productive.

3) How productive would the new wells be and when? How many would be required for the legionary force? The answers are almost impossible to calculate for me or the Legionary commander.

Relying on wells is, I submit, far too risky and time-consuming and why bother?

When writing about Boudica I had to think about the legionary force arriving at Silchester which has a number of wells (map and text here). Conclusion was that the legionaries could not defend the town nor rely on the wells or local streams for supply. My guess is that legions would camp approx. 1km east of Silchester next to a river.

I bet the general rule was to not rely on wells but to camp outside towns (but march through them impressing the locals with your display of power).

Other rules might have applied when considering mixing legionaries and towns-folk.
1) Legionaries are generally well-fed, healthy and (mostly) disease free. Many town-folk were probably not. Rule = don't mix legionaries with town-folk when on campaign.
2) Wells are usually polluted to one extent or another. Town-folk develop an immunity to the bugs in their wells (even true today in rural Yorkshire). Legionaries would probably become sick from drinking water from wells. Rule = legionaries shouldn't drink from wells when flowing water is readily available.
3) Mixing soldiers and town-folk is potentially an explosive mixture. Rule = keep separate legionaries and town-folk when on campaign.

I'll stop that list now!

Another point, about ditches - I recall a mention here before that a number of known Roman marching camps appear to have either no ditches, or a very cursory one. The rampart was the important thing.

You may be right! Legionaries are incredibly practical/pragmatic people. For example, some Scottish marching camp locations appear to be situated in locations beyond the normal march distance in areas with increased soil depth. The terrain they had been marching across was/is largely barren and with little soil depth: hence, digging deep ditches would be very difficult and time and energy consuming. Much better, in these circumstances, to march a little further to an area with deeper soil where ditches can be more easily dug.

But, if the the marching legion cannot reach such deep soil then they are forced to camp on shallow-soiled areas. Then they behave as farmers in similar situations - scrape the barren soil, resulting in a shallow ditch and place the residue to form a rampart base (field wall); now clear the interior of rocks/boulders and place these on the rampart base. Simple, practical and quite easy for 1,000s of men. The result we find might be a poor ditch and more substantial rampart. Anyway, that is one idea I'd like to test and why I'm searching for data on soil depths across the UK.

Regards, Steve Kaye