Cutting tests with sword and pugio / experiment

[caiusbeerquitius]

Hi all!
This fall I will have an opportuunity to make experiments with our sword and pugio reconstruction. We will make cutting and stabbing tests at a large anthropological Institute with real human bodies, from people who dedicated their bodies to science. Now I am thinking about sensible questions, the breadboard, the experimental set-up etc.

I´d be happy about some input. :-)

[Vindex]

Wow! That's true experimental archaeology hock:
Do you have a gauge to assess weight of thrust in relation to the degree of damage?

I'm thinking here of the bodies/body parts in different armour types so the impact on the bone can be assessed? (And is there a helmet you can sacrifice for the head?!) ie how hard a blow would be required to break an arm even if the blow did not penetrate the armour.

A camera with super slow motion capability might be of benefit. (although they are very expensive items of equipemt to hire)

How exciting.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes...do keep us informed....

[M. Val. Naso]

This is frightening and amazing at the same time. When I die, I want my remains to be hacked and slashed in the name of science! (Preferably ecperimenting with a Zwehänder, or smth.)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

This is frightening and amazing at the same time. When I die, I want my remains to be hacked and slashed in the name of science! (Preferably ecperimenting with a Zwehänder, or smth.)

Say what?? hock:

[Kegluneq]

Wow, this sounds like an unprecedented opportunity! I can't imagine the paperwork involved in setting that one up...

I imagine the most important thing is to carry out experiments of worth that are non-replicable on non-human test subjects. There's still the limitation that it would presumably be quite difficult to assess things like bruising etc that presumably rely on a working circulatory system. As such I'm worried as to how much use tests with armour would be, or is that a false concern?

Also, is it possible to pose (argh) the cadavers to enable the use of realistic angles of attack, or will the tests be highly mechanical in nature?

Thirdly, are you using only the gladius and pugio? Weapons like the falx might be interesting to try as well, especially given that they apparently lead to the development of strengthened armour to withstand their attacks. It might also be interesting to test the effects of Roman javelin and arrow heads on the body, although I asusme that comparable research using medieval wepaonry could be a stand in there (that said I've never heard of weapon tests on actual bodies before).

[alekaras5811]

I would like to say that the pictures of the gladius and pugio are amazing.
I would be extremely interested to know the effects of stabbing as well as slashing blows to the human body and head as well as the levels of protection by the different kids of armor. Thanks for sharing.

[Vindex]

...and another thing

I assume you have your test criteria documentation and recording of results sorted?

Is there anything to be gained from keeping a record of the number of blows before the gladius or pugio starts to blunt to the point of ineffectiveness?

[caiusbeerquitius]

No armour, I´m afraid. A Roman helmet that would be able to offer adequate results, i.e. an "authentic" helmet is too expensive. If someone wants to sponsor us, go ahead ;-)
armour´s the same: authentic chain mail or scale or egementata´s also too expensive. We might use patches, but probably there is not enough time.
Poses for the bodies are possible, though, but of course not all. The main idea is to document cuts and slashes, plus some stabs, and to investigate marks left on bones, to be able to make comparisons to finds. Also injury to soft tissue should be investigated in depth. We will film, but not with a slow-mo-camera (no money for that) Documentation shall include also a pathology afterwards, of course. All tho is already super-expensive...

I know it´s a bit creepy, all that. ^^

[alekaras5811]

Too bad there is no budget for body armor,
However, the effects of weapons on the human body in a controlled environment should be extremely interesting. Even though it is in a more limited scope.
I do not think its creappy at all. Then again I am former military and law enforcement.

[caiusbeerquitius]

I assume you have your test criteria documentation and recording of results sorted?

I only know it since last friday, so, not really. That´s why I´m asking for some input / brainstorming... :-)

Too bad there is no budget for body armor,

another problem is that we simply do not know enough about subarmalis / sub-armour to get proper results...

Too bad there is no budget for body armor,
However, the effects of weapons on the human body in a controlled environment should be extremely interesting.

I think so, too.

I do not think its creappy at all. Then again I am former military and law enforcement.

Yes, it depends a lot on the personal mind-setting... ;-)

[Vindex]

Shame there's no money for armour - but it is still a fabulous oportunity; and no, not creepy at all (but then I'm ex-military too :wink: )

There's a very logical format for testing which clearly states the stages required and results at each stage which is based on software testing. I've used it for other things (but nothing like this I admit). Would that be helpful? I'm sure I have a copy of it somewhere.

[john m roberts]

Any idea of the physical condition of the "volunteers?" The reason I ask is, in modern Western countries, most people die in old age, of debilitating conditions. You'd be awfully lucky to have a young warrior-type to experiment with.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Funny, a civilian saying this would be found....creepy.... :roll:

It's interesting, but, are there not differences in the body and how it will respond to trauma
before and after death?
I ca nwell imagine the result of cutting the tendons at the back of the leg, but not being a doctor, would they repsond the same after death, and rigormortis has come and gone?

[Razor]

Eh... What don't we know about the effects of slashing swords and pugios on a human body? Interesting opportunity, but I'd say it would have much much more value if there was some form of armour into play here.