(Another) Roman Saddle Question

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Some new and interesting info in this discussion! Thanks for sharing.

[Vindex]

It is furthemore worth noting that accompanied with some of these horn-bronses some metal bars have been found (Pers. comm. Harry van Enckevort) which are not fully published and recognised as such, but may well be metal components of the saddle tree.

Have you any more details on this please, Jurjen? I haven't come across anything which includes metal (other than horn plates) as part of the saddle.

Let us not forget that the saddle horns now in the Colchester Museum were mis-identified as epaulettes for quite some time!!!

[mcbishop]

Let us not forget that the saddle horns now in the Colchester Museum were mis-identified as epaulletes for quite some time!!!

Almost as good as the Verulamium Museum thinking their lorica segmentata was a bucket.

Mike Bishop

[Vindex]

[Vindex]

I've finally got round to taking photographs of a contemporary saddle (from South America) so that you can see what I mean about there being pad saddle (Junkelmann) and other pad saddles. I assume it is based on what you think a pad is! In my context, it is a non rigid tree saddle.

The illustration is an artist's impression of a saddle from 3rd Century BC Bactria. The Altai Mountains steppe nomands' saddles are very similar (although possibly some evidence of wooden elements included in theirs).

Nothing like the Junkelmann idea, really.

The added padding on the top of the South American saddle (front and back) are stuffed leather. The two cylindical elements are rolled leather too and very strong. These sit comfortably on either side of the horse's spine. The "boards" on either side are also very rigid and my theory is that if you added stuffed leather horns as seen in depictions of Roman saddles, reinforced with the bronze horn pieces also in the archaeological record, you would have something sufficiently robust to account for the stretch marks (and reinforced stitching) otherwise used to indicate a wooden tree saddle favoured by Connolly.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Is that for riding or for packing freight?

[Vindex]

Riding!

The South American saddle base (as shown) is secured in place by a smaller leather pad and then has a huge sheepskin pad put over it and these days the stirrups are attached to the strap which holds it in place (a surcingle strap over the girth)

[Caratacus]

Just a thought but ..... what's the normal reason for using a metal cover in this way on anything? I would suggest two possibilities: (a) to make it look pretty (unlikely here, as it's covered by the leather, or (b) to reinforce the wooden part.

If the saddle horn is damaged, there goes your way (in the absence of stirrups) of staying in the saddle. These things stick up somewhat. If they got lopped off by a sword swing, then might not the saddle horns be worthy of some added protection? As I said, and having only ever sat on a horse once (evil-eyed thing called 'Red' for some reason), it's just a thought. :unsure:

Mike Thomas (Caratacus)

[Vindex]

That's quite a good thought, actually! Thank you

[jvrjenivs]

Although I would suggest any rider to be able to stay onto his mount without using the horns! They indeed add extra safety and can be used very well to stay into the saddle, but with a good seat they aren't needed with normal practice (if the rider indeed is good enough).

@Mike: I thought them to be find #360/009 from the Kops plateau, but a look at the drawings (in ROB 43) it doesn't look like those will fit each other. Have to ask Harry van Enckevort again.

[mcbishop]

I thought them to be find #360/009 from the Kops plateau, but a look at the drawings (in ROB 43) it doesn't look like those will fit each other. Have to ask Harry van Enckevort again.

Okay, thanks.

Mike Bishop

[jvrjenivs]

As we're talking saddles, here a pic of my new saddle I just finished. Saddle cover after the Carlisle finds, scaled to a saddle tree fitting my horse.
Tree by Joram van Essen, leatherwork by me.

[Vindex]

That's looking pretty nifty, Jurjen! Well done.

Of course the other thing about having a secure seat on a horse and not using the horns as a cradle to stay on the damned animal, is that you can actually drop the reins and concentrate on fighting mile: I've said it before and I'll keep saying it - the horse's back teeth are not there for the rider's balance!! An independent seat on a well made saddle through which you can feel the horse is all you need.

[Renatus]

Let me understand this saddle issue. Forgive me if I am going over old ground.

As I understand it, in the Connolly saddle, the cover is stitched firmly around the tree, so that it can only be removed by cutting or unpicking the stitches; in the Carlisle saddle, the cover is slipped over the tree but not secured, so that it can be removed relatively easily. One then has to consider why this should be necessary. Possibly, the substructure of the saddle, tree or stuffing, or the cover itself needed maintenance and/or repair fairly frequently, making it necessary for the cover to be readily removeable. Alternatively, the Carlisle saddle may have simply been a Connolly saddle with side flaps and the under-panel, which secured the cover around the tree, had been cut away and lost when the cover was removed from the tree.

It is suggested, I think, that the owner's name was scratched on the stiffeners to identify them when the saddle was stripped down for repair and to ensure that they were replaced on the right saddle. A simpler explanation might be that, as the bronze-worker who made the stiffeners is unlikely to have been the same person as the saddle-maker who constructed the saddle, the bronze-worker scratched the owner's name on the stiffeners after he had made them, so that the saddle-maker could mount them on the correct saddle when he constructed it.

[mcbishop]

A simpler explanation might be that, as the bronze-worker who made the stiffeners is unlikely to have been the same person as the saddle-maker who constructed the saddle, the bronze-worker scratched the owner's name on the stiffeners after he had made them, so that the saddle-maker could mount them on the correct saddle when he constructed it.

I think that's more-or-less what Peter concluded in his paper* on the Newstead saddle horns.

*Connolly, P. 1990: 'The saddle horns from Newstead', Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies 1, 61-6

Mike Bishop