Here are a couple of jacks of the late 16th century at the Leeds Armoury and museum of Scotland they represent those worn by Boarder Reivers, they do give a diamond shape stitching however the plates beneath cannot be seen so I shall let you explain the size and shape of the plates and why they have a diagonal stitching.
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[attachment=5262]422px-Late-medieval_jack_National_Museum_of_Scotland_collection1.jpg[/attachment]
This is from Ffoulkes (p. 50). It shows the plates from the first of your examples (The Royal Armouries, Leeds). Claude Blair has a similar diagram on p. 229.
[attachment=5263]JackofPlatesinteriorFfoulkes.jpg[/attachment]
Quote:In a medieval context and if the soldiers were equipped with helms the scene Nathan showed would be regarded as an excellent example of knights wearing quilted 'aketons'. There is documentary evidence from this period and later which describes how effective these garments were and that they could be worn in their own right as well under armour.
Not really. The medieval terms for these garments might be interchangeable but the garments themselves were not. The textile garment worn under armour was completely different to standalone textile armours.
Thank you that is most interesting and I can see now what you mean it's where the plates overlap and the stitching is done in centre holes giving a diamond shape.
Quote:In Suetonius Twelve Caesars he tells us that when Galba set off from Spain he put himself on his journey clad in his coat-armour, with his dagger hanging down from about his neck just before his breast;
Suetonius doesn't actually mention armour, Brian. He writes that Galba began his journey paludatus ac dependente a cervicibus pugione ante pectus ("clad in the general's cloak [i.e. the paludamentum] and with a dagger hanging from his neck in front of his chest").
I think the main point to bear in mind is this: We know that quilted garments are theoretically possible in the Roman world and may be depicted in sculpture, but I am unaware of such garments ever having been mentioned or described in the documentary sources, so we cannot be sure that we have correctly interpreted the visual evidence.
I was not even aware that such quilted garments could have metal plates sewn within them! What do you think is the point of such a garment? To conceal the fact that the owner is wearing armour? Otherwise the same effect could be achieved simply by wearing a set of scale armour, without adding the quilting. Or is it somehow related to the northern European climate?
Graham Sumner wrote: 'In a medieval context and if the soldiers were equipped with helms the scene Nathan showed would be regarded as an excellent example of knights wearing quilted 'aketons'. There is documentary evidence from this period and later which describes how effective these garments were and that they could be worn in their own right as well under armour'.
Not really. The medieval terms for these garments might be interchangeable but the garments themselves were not. The textile garment worn under armour was completely different to standalone textile armours.
I presume you mean my last sentence Dan? Judging from the examples in the books I mentioned you are quite right there are numerous names for these things but I would not say all the garments look the same although they may have a similar function and some similar methods of construction.
In the re- constructions and original sources illustrated in the two books, those garments which appear to be stuffed with material in tubes are worn both under armour and on their own without armour although some may be worn over armour. Possibly those without armour were never intended to be worn with armour as the soldier could not afford any. This type of garment looks very similar to a number of Roman sources but it is generally not accepted that they show garments like this.
it has been suggested that the Carlisle writing tablets describes two types of garment worn by cavalrymen during training one for winter one for summer. Although the name Subarmalis implies something worn under armour it is clearly not worn this way in this context, however the original translator of the document also thought the name described an under arm lance.
Both Mike Bishop and myself agree that the item is something meant to be worn and a subarmalis also appears on a list of clothing from Vindolanda. However I am pretty sure he does not agree with me that some Roman sculptures show these things too, as I think I am prepared to give Roman artists more credit.
It is also an interesting thought that we generally are all guilty of attributing the less realistic types of sculpture to poor workmanship.
I guess in a modern context that could be like saying Picasso's work is poor draughtsmanship because it looks pretty naff compared with the works of Gerome or Alma Tadema. Imagine what a modern art historian would make of that!
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
I was quoting from my copy of the translation by Philemon Holland (Anno 1606) where in The History Of Servious Sulpicius Galba 11. it states coat armour. it goes on to say neither took he to the use of a gown and long robe again before they were surprised and suppressed, who made insurrections and rose up in arms against him.
Quote:I was not even aware that such quilted garments could have metal plates sewn within them! What do you think is the point of such a garment? To conceal the fact that the owner is wearing armour? Otherwise the same effect could be achieved simply by wearing a set of scale armour, without adding the quilting. Or is it somehow related to the northern European climate?
Europe has a tradition of cloth-covered metal armour going back to the 11th-12th century: jazerant, armoured surcoat, coat of plates, brigandine, covered breastplate, jack of plates, etc. I doubt that it has anything to do with climate since the practice was likely adopted from the Middle East (jazerant was the European version of the kazaghand). It was probably a lot more common than we suspect. Every time you see a reference to "white" armour in a text, it is referring to the occasional armour that was not covered with cloth.
Brian I wonder if you were thinking of the other quote about Galba, in Suetonius, Galba 19.
Here it is mentioned he put on a linen 'lorica'
Caracalla wore a tunic fashioned to look like armour which he wore under his other clothes. He attended a Senate meeting accompanied by armed guards and wearing a loricam beneath his Senator's clothing. SHA Caracalla II
Julius Caesar mentions that his soldiers made tunics out of felt quilt and hide as protection against arrows Civil War., III,44
SubarmalisTab. Vind.II,184,iii,38 amongst a list of clothes.
Anonymous De Rubis Bellicis XV 1-2 describes a Thoracomachus which was worn to counteract the weight and friction of armour. It was made to measure out of thick cloth.
Anonymous De Re Militari, XVI, 20if. In the reign of Justinian the author writes that armour "should not be worn directly over ordinary clothing, as some do to keep the weight down but over a himation at least a finger thick.
Procopius BV, III,23 mentions that Roman bodyguards prepared to fight by first putting on their himatia and then taking up their weapons.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
I was indeed quoting from Para' 11 (Philemon Holland) of Galba that gives us his beginnings as Emperor in Spain, but where you mention Para' 19 it is reference to just before Otho had him topped. However where you mentioned Para' 19 there is very good reference in the notes on Galba about a Quilted Leather Cuirass sometimes fitted with metal plates, then a very good explanation about how a linen garment was treated with vinegar or old wine to create a very strong piece of armour in ancient times.
Quote:I was not even aware that such quilted garments could have metal plates sewn within them! What do you think is the point of such a garment? To conceal the fact that the owner is wearing armour? Otherwise the same effect could be achieved simply by wearing a set of scale armour, without adding the quilting. Or is it somehow related to the northern European climate?
Presumably it would have helped to provide padding for the rear of the armour, meaning there would be less abrasion of an undergarment, and would also reduce the chances of individual scales being knocked loose. The outer layer of fabric may also have kept the elements off to a limited degree? With that in mind, it looks like it would be much harder to maintain, as individual scales were bound closely to ones on all sides and the fabric would be an extra complication to work around. Perhaps the fabric may have helped hold loose scales in place?
I don't know how hard it is to maintain a jack like the one shown - presumably the scales would still be prone to rust despite the fabric cover. Roman military fashion seems to have emphasised gleaming armour to a far greater degree and perhaps ease of maintenance was an inintentional side effect of that. Overall the jack looks like a very effective piece of body armour, but I think it runs contrary to Roman military ideals of appearence and as such would be an unlikely choice at the turn of the first C AD.
Quote:I think the sculpture above resembles this one the most.
I thought of Calidius Severus too. But of course, since he was a centurion he must have been wearing scale, right?
It does look rather like a padded corselet with integral pteruges though... if we didn't know any better...
I do wonder about this particular tombstone. Severus had an unusual career - he started as an eques in an auxiliary cohort, then became a decurion, then transferred to a legion as centurion.
Perhaps the three sections of the tombstone are meant to show the three stages in his career, like a strip cartoon? The horse represents his time as an eques, the crested helmet and greaves show his rank as legion centurion - and the armour in some way represents his time as an auxiliary decurion. Might a padded or quilted garment be more appropriate for a cavalry officer?
Meanwhile, since we're on the subject, this old thread might be worth a glance:
![[Image: Centurion.jpg]](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/RCasti998/Centurion.jpg)
![[Image: 10020335.jpg]](http://www.lessing-photo.com/p2/100203/10020335.jpg)
