Rome\'s decline and the U.S.

[Roman Citizen]

I used to see the USA as Rome even years ago but of late I think we will end up more like Carthage with our spineless politicians.

[Caballo]

Just a quick note- please keep clear of modern politics!

[Roman Citizen]

Just a quick note- please keep clear of modern politics!

Considering the topic! U.S. Vs. Roman politics is basically what the topic is about, I'd suggest just deleting the thread if there is a bar on politics.

[Caballo]

We're happy (as mods) for informed, polite debate and comparisons to be made. The modern v Roman comparison is an interesting subject.

But we are also very aware that this could tip over into a flame war- and we want to make RAT a pleasant and civilsed place to come and spend time and sharing our common interest in the Roman army and period generally.

[starman2012]

I used to see the USA as Rome even years ago but of late I think we will end up more like Carthage with our spineless politicians.

Our politicians may be no good but I think they'll be replaced. I doubt we'll end up like Carthage.

[M. Demetrius]

I'd suggest just deleting the thread if there is a bar on politics.

Do click on the link below and become familiar with the rule concerning politics.

Thanks, Michael, and welcome to RAT, by the way.

[Eleatic Guest]

I used to see the USA as Rome even years ago but of late I think we will end up more like Carthage with our spineless politicians.

Now the decline of Carthage was really something else! Instead of throwing the full support of the city behind Hannibal in order to bring the war to a swift and victorious end, the Carthaginian merchant aristocracy was happy enough that Hannibal bought them some time from the Romans to continue their trading. Talk about short-sightedness!

In school, the teacher told us that the Punic Wars marked the defeat of the - petty-minded - trader by the patriotic peasant and I have never found reason to revise his view. There is a lot to learn from the Punic Wars, the way it went and its final outcome, today just as then.

Schwarzkopf said that the principles of war have not changed since Hannibal, and I believe this applies just as much to the rise and fall of nations and civilizations. Every generation has to learn the lesson anew that nothing is granted and that everything you own has to be fought for in order to be kept. It's not just the USA, but the entire West which has increasingly shut its eyes and ears towards this lesson and is getting complacent as if history had somehow stopped, eternally securing its place in the sun and its continued existence.

[Narukami]

Indeed, I find Scipio Africanus to be the the real hero of the Punic Wars. His stedfast belief in res publica, not just as a platitude, but as a way of life that he followed, set the standard that few have been able to match.

For me, at least, it is the unbridled greed, both ancient and current, that I find most disturbing.

Perhaps I view Scipio with the proverbial 'rose colored glasses' but I find his example to be very compelling. Of course the best story about Scipio is the one about his meeting with Hannibal years after Zama.


Africanus asked who, in Hannibal's opinion, was the greatest general of all time. Hannibal replied, "Alexander ... because with a small force he routed armies of countless numbers, and because he traversed the remotest lands"

Asked whom he placed second, Hannibal said, "Pyrrhus. He was the first to teach the art of laying out a camp. Besides that, no one has ever shown nicer judgement in choosing his ground, or in disposing his forces. He also had the art of winning men to his side."

When Africanus followed up by asking whom he ranked third, Hannibal unhesitatingly chose himself. Scipio burst out laughing at this and said, "What would you be saying if you had defeated me?"

"In that case," replied Hannibal, "I should certainly put myself before Alexander and before Pyrrhus -- in fact before all other generals!"

This reply, with its elaborate Punic subtlety, affected Scipio deeply, because Hannibal had set him apart from the general run of commanders, as one whose worth was beyond calculation.

(Adrian Goldsworthy, In The Name Of Rome, c2003, page 69)

:wink:

Narukami

[starman2012]

Asked whom he placed second, Hannibal said, "Pyrrhus. He was the first to teach the art of laying out a camp. Besides that, no one has ever shown nicer judgement in choosing his ground, or in disposing his forces.

Maybe so but still...strange choice. Hannibal was rather modest to rank Pyrrhus second, when you compare the kill ratios. Pyrrhus lost a lot more (relative to achievement) than Hannibal, giving rise to the term "pyrrhic victory.".

[Narukami]

Yes, Hannibal's observations are quite interesting. I do think he and Scipio were, generally speaking, 'modest' about their military accomplishments.

:wink:

Narukami

[starman2012]

Instead of throwing the full support of the city behind Hannibal in order to bring the war to a swift and victorious end, the Carthaginian merchant aristocracy was happy enough that Hannibal bought them some time from the Romans to continue their trading.

They were slow to recognize the magnitude of Hannibal's victories. But I dunno...one problem was the failure of Hannibal to capture a good seaport, another was the walls of Rome.

[Draconis]

Yes, Hannibal's observations are quite interesting. I do think he and Scipio were, generally speaking, 'modest' about their military accomplishments.

:wink:

Narukami

I think great men who have accomplished so much as Hannibal and Scipio did had no need to boast, it would have been beneath them. As an aside, given the degree of threat Hannibal was to Rome, and how utterly Rome destroyed Carthage so it would never rise again, you might expect Rome to have killed Hannibal for the same reason. That they didn't seems to bespeak of immense respect Scipio in particular must have felt for Hannibal. I read somewhere that the Roman Army became what it became founded on lessons they learned from Hannibal.

[starman2012]

I read somewhere that the Roman Army became what it became founded on lessons they learned from Hannibal.

Did they employ hannibalic traps? Not AFAIK. Of course they learned to scout the route ahead for traps or ambushes. mile:

[Draconis]

They learned there was more to strategy than lining up facing the enemy and marching stright at them til they got to the other side of the battle field... Cannae... flanking maneuvers and encircling. But I fear we have strayed far from the topic at hand.

[Robert Vermaat]

Perhaps this recent banter about Carthage warrant a seprate (split off) thread?