11-15-2012, 06:42 PM
Can you give one of those references that states that Retiarii are considered good looking?
Also where do you get the notion that Provocatores use longer swords?
Actually iconography very often shows them with rather short blades like the two 20cm bladed examples from Pompeii:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40060535@N0..._396582147
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
Or at least with blades that are not longer than contemporary Scutarii:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
Actually only Republican and early Augustan iconography shows Gladiators with longer blades resembling Mainz type Gladii.
The reforms by Augustus seem to have introduced the 20cm and 30cm blades found in Pompeii.
You might have misunderstood me concerning the Provocator as a basic training Armatura.
I was not saying that all Gladiators started their arena career as Provocatores, like Teyssier does.
What I was getting at is that all Armaturae except the Retiarius use a sword and a shield, so the basic training in this weapon combination teaches the basic footwork as well as defensive and offensive moves used by all Armaturae.
Even the later Retiarius can get a feeling about the offensive and defensive capabilities of his Scutarius adversary in this way.
Still I do not propose that a Tiro trained in the basic sword and shield style of the Provocator would then also fight in this Armatura in the arena.
But pairing two recruits in this Armatura at the end of basic training would have been an excellent way of determining the respective affinity for offensive or defensive fighting as well as strength, agility and stamina.
After that the actual Armatura can be assigned to each Tiro and the advanced training in that Armatura can begin, after which the first fights at munerae would follow.
Of course this is all speculation based on our years of experience in training this fighting style, nothing of this can be actually proven as our only notion on Gladiatorial training are a few references concerning the training at the Palus.
You do also propose a basic training af all recruits to determine the future Armatura of a recruit, so how would this basic training be conducted in your opinion?
The interaction between Gladiatorial fighting styles and the military application of the sword and shield fighting style is shown by the use of Gladiators or Gladiatorial trainers in a military context since Republican times.
Gladiators where even employed in civil warfare, very often in special operations, as their close combat skills were highly valued, but they lacked the military drill and discipline of a regular Miles.
By the way I have trained and fought with a lot of weapons and weapon combinations over the last 15 years, Gladiatorial and otherwise, and I would very much dispute your claim that measure would have to be learned from scratch with each weapon.
Once you have developed a feeling for the reach of your own body, you only have to add the reach of the individual weapon to that. This can be learned quite fast for each new weapon.
According to iconography and our experience footwork seems to have been quite similar for all Armaturae.
Also where do you get the notion that Provocatores use longer swords?
Actually iconography very often shows them with rather short blades like the two 20cm bladed examples from Pompeii:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40060535@N0..._396582147
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
Or at least with blades that are not longer than contemporary Scutarii:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
Actually only Republican and early Augustan iconography shows Gladiators with longer blades resembling Mainz type Gladii.
The reforms by Augustus seem to have introduced the 20cm and 30cm blades found in Pompeii.
You might have misunderstood me concerning the Provocator as a basic training Armatura.
I was not saying that all Gladiators started their arena career as Provocatores, like Teyssier does.
What I was getting at is that all Armaturae except the Retiarius use a sword and a shield, so the basic training in this weapon combination teaches the basic footwork as well as defensive and offensive moves used by all Armaturae.
Even the later Retiarius can get a feeling about the offensive and defensive capabilities of his Scutarius adversary in this way.
Still I do not propose that a Tiro trained in the basic sword and shield style of the Provocator would then also fight in this Armatura in the arena.
But pairing two recruits in this Armatura at the end of basic training would have been an excellent way of determining the respective affinity for offensive or defensive fighting as well as strength, agility and stamina.
After that the actual Armatura can be assigned to each Tiro and the advanced training in that Armatura can begin, after which the first fights at munerae would follow.
Of course this is all speculation based on our years of experience in training this fighting style, nothing of this can be actually proven as our only notion on Gladiatorial training are a few references concerning the training at the Palus.
You do also propose a basic training af all recruits to determine the future Armatura of a recruit, so how would this basic training be conducted in your opinion?
The interaction between Gladiatorial fighting styles and the military application of the sword and shield fighting style is shown by the use of Gladiators or Gladiatorial trainers in a military context since Republican times.
Gladiators where even employed in civil warfare, very often in special operations, as their close combat skills were highly valued, but they lacked the military drill and discipline of a regular Miles.
By the way I have trained and fought with a lot of weapons and weapon combinations over the last 15 years, Gladiatorial and otherwise, and I would very much dispute your claim that measure would have to be learned from scratch with each weapon.
Once you have developed a feeling for the reach of your own body, you only have to add the reach of the individual weapon to that. This can be learned quite fast for each new weapon.
According to iconography and our experience footwork seems to have been quite similar for all Armaturae.
Olaf Küppers - Histotainment, Event und Promotion - Germany
