Cohort commander?

[Nathan Ross]

It becomes even more fuzzy with vexillationes.

It does! There are plenty of inscriptions describing a centurion commanding a vexillation, with or without the added distinction of a praepositus position. But none that I can find give any real information about how large the vexillation was. When we have information on the composition of a vexillation (eg ILS 2487: Hadrian's speech to III Augusta, with a cohort in one place and 'a cohort and four men from each century' in another), the commander of the vexillation (if there was one) is not stated.

The only possible exception might be this one, from Olbia (AE 1995, 01348):

per vexil(lationem) / [leg(ionum)] I Ital(icae) V Mac(edonicae) / XI Cl(audiae) et c(ohortium) VI sub Ma/lico |(centurione) leg(ionis) XI Cl(audiae)

Malicus is a centurion, and appears to command the vexillation (?), which includes six cohorts of... something! Extra auxilaries? Does Malicus just command the extra cohorts, or the legionaries too?

:unsure:

[Robert]

I wonder if that insription should be read that way. "Per vexil" could also be taken as meaning "by order" (refering to the erection of the tombstone), the inscription seems to sum up three legions of which he was a part, the last one being the XI, where his century was part of the VI cohort ....

[Frank]

The only possible exception might be this one, from Olbia (AE 1995, 01348):

per vexil(lationem) / [leg(ionum)] I Ital(icae) V Mac(edonicae) / XI Cl(audiae) et c(ohortium) VI sub Ma/lico |(centurione) leg(ionis) XI Cl(audiae)

Malicus is a centurion, and appears to command the vexillation (?), which includes six cohorts of... something! Extra auxilaries? Does Malicus just command the extra cohorts, or the legionaries too?

:unsure:

Actually, this quote does not say exactly 6 cohorts of the mentioned legions, it just could say soldiers from these units, without telling us how many soldiers. Well, my latin is not the best. Also the purpose of this vexillatio would be nice to know.

And as Robert says, it could be fully different.

[Renatus]

That statement is bordering on a personal attack and I recommend it cease.

Gentlemen we are on a Roman forum!!!! Show some civility please!

Don't worry, Burzum. I wasn't offended. Antiochus and I have crossed swords in the past but I am not automatically hostile to him, whatever he may think. I just want to understand his theories.

[Nathan Ross]

Well, my latin is not the best. Also the purpose of this vexillatio would be nice to know. And as Robert says, it could be fully different.

My latin is almost non-existent, but I try and make the best of it... mile:

This inscription appears similar to many from the north coast of the Black Sea featuring legion detachments from Moesia Inferior in particular. Uncertain dating, I think, but some involve tetrarchic legions, so late third century perhaps.

So I'm guessing the text reads: "(something was built) by a detachment of legions I Italica, V Macedonica, XI Claudia and six cohorts under (the command of) Malicus, centurion of legion XI Claudia."

Does that look right? Still doesn't explain what the six cohorts were though... :unsure:

[Flavivs Aetivs]

per vexil(lationem) / [leg(ionum)] I Ital(icae) V Mac(edonicae) / XI Cl(audiae) et c(ohortium) VI sub Ma/lico |(centurione) leg(ionis) XI Cl(audiae)

"Through the Vexillationes of the Legions I, V Macedonica, XI Claudia, and Cohort 6 under the Centurion Mal[icus?] of the Legion XI Claudia."

[Nathan Ross]

and Cohort 6

But is cohortium not the genitive plural? So 'six cohorts' rather than 'the sixth cohort'?

Need a latinist to sort this one out...

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Hmm... I think it is. Let me ask my Latin Teacher she's on Skype.

EDIT: Here's our conversation

[1:16:27 PM] Flavius Aetius: Ah good i need your assistance
[1:16:45 PM] Tracy: What's up?
[1:17:09 PM] Flavius Aetius: Trying to translate this tombstone, here's what I got"
[1:17:10 PM] Flavius Aetius:
per vexil(lationem) / [leg(ionum)] I Ital(icae) V Mac(edonicae) / XI Cl(audiae) et c(ohortium) VI sub Ma/lico |(centurione) leg(ionis) XI Cl(audiae)

"Through the Vexillationes of the Legions I, V Macedonica, XI Claudia, and Cohort 6 under the Centurion Mal[icus?] of the Legion XI Claudia."
Thanks, Evan
[1:17:36 PM] Tracy: vex is sg
[1:17:47 PM] Flavius Aetius: is "cohortium" plural is what i need to know
[1:17:50 PM] Tracy: you forgot Italica
[1:18:10 PM] Tracy: cohortum is pl
[1:18:29 PM] Flavius Aetius: so "ium" is singular and "um" is plural?
[1:19:14 PM] Tracy: no, should be cohors, cohortis
[1:19:25 PM] Tracy: um is genitive pl
[1:19:35 PM] Flavius Aetius: Okay
[1:19:39 PM] Flavius Aetius: thanks

Last Name edited out for privacy.

[Macedon]

..but gentlemen... c(ohortium) means that only the letter c is inscribed. The rest is anyways an educated attempt to translate, given by whoever did the work. So, the actual word could be of any declension, right?

[Frank]

..but gentlemen... c(ohortium) means that only the letter c is inscribed. The rest is anyways an educated attempt to translate, given by whoever did the work. So, the actual word could be of any declension, right?

Whatever "c" means, together with VI it sounds a bit weird to me.

[Praefectusclassis]

In theory, yes, but when emending inscriptions there are other inscriptions to compare to, and it doesn't make sense if it said 'vexillations of x legions and Cohort six'. The 'et' indicates an entirely new unit. An auxiliary unit without its full name? Unlikely. A cohort of another legion? Then why not just list an extra legion. On the other hand, "... And so many cohorts" (of auxiliaries) is a very common literary and epigraphical reference.

[Frank]

What makes sense to me is: from vexillationes of the 3 mentioned legions and another vexillatio from 6 different auxilia cohorts. The latter led by centurio Malico. But now the inscription says nothing about the amount of soldiers led by this centurio. More than 6 guys, of course. 8)

Vexillationes collected from several auxilia were pretty usual. And there was propably not enough space to list the rather long names of all these 6 auxilia cohorts.

Or this centurio led all these vexillationes from different units grouped together for a certain task. We still don't know, how big every single vexillatio and the entire group was.

[D B Campbell]

However, the cohort is also used as a unit manning a castellum. In this case, the cohort would have been supervised by the castellum commander, which we believe to be a legate or prefect. The six centurion would be in charge of their assigned body of men and would make up the cohort staff, along with an administrator.

You are describing an auxiliary cohort, Robert. Your "castellum commander" (actually the cohort commander, usually) would be an equestrian officer: a prefect or tribune, not a legate. (Not sure what you were envisaging with your "administrator".)

I'm guessing the text reads: "(something was built) by a detachment of legions I Italica, V Macedonica, XI Claudia and six cohorts under (the command of) Malicus, centurion of legion XI Claudia." Does that look right? Still doesn't explain what the six cohorts were though... :unsure:

Ah, the perils of trying to interpret an inscription without its context!

AE 1995, 1348 was found at Parutino (Ukraine), ancient Olbia, where a second/third century fort was apparently garrisoned by troops seconded from Moesia Inferior, home of the I Italica, V Macedonica and XI Claudia, besides assorted auxiliary units. The site has (apparently) produced tile-stamps of I Italica, V Macedonica, and cohors VI Asturum.

According to AE, the inscription -- which I have not seen -- reads:
--]R VEXIL
--]I ITAL V MAC
--]T C VI MA
--]LICO > LEG XI CL

You can see that the centurion is unlikely to have been called Malicus ... unless he spelled it Maaaaaaaalicus! Without seeing the stone, it's difficult to know how much is missing from the left, but Sarnowski (whose publication is reported in AE) seems to think that there was space to name XI Claudia in the vexillation breakdown. (The fact that the commander came from XI Claudia needn't imply that legion's participation.) And it seems odd (to me) to abbreviate cohors VI Asturum as C VI. But these things are sent to try us.

Incidentally, you are correct that the inscription seems to be a building record, not a tombstone.

[antiochus]

Renatus wrote:
You have been talking for a long time about writing a book. You imply (although perhaps I have misunderstood you) that you have finished it. Yet, when someone expresses an interest in your theories and asks when they may be published, so that he may fully understand them (which implies a willingness to expend money in the purchase of the book), you attack him. This, I might suggest, is not a good marketing strategy. I don't think that your publishers would approve.

Come on Renatus, stop pretending to be the victim here. You were not expressing an interest in my theories…you were being sarcastic. Had you taken a more positive approach you would have received a positive response. And for the record, I have been writing the book for years and now it is finished. I'm also not asking you to expend money on the book…I have put you on the free list.

Steven

[Nathan Ross]

... unless he spelled it Maaaaaaaalicus!

I have a vewy gweat fwiend in Wome called Maaaaaalicus... (etc)

But you're right - it's really not all that.

So our potential cohort-commanding centurion fades into the Euxine mists... :-|