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Roxolani and Iaziges
#61
As far as I know, you're correct. Good to put the Goths/Alans in the same historical context. :-) :-)
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#62
I know this thread about roxolani and iazyges but I know little about goths but did Jordanes have an Alan father?
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#63
Quote:I know this thread about roxolani and iazyges but I know little about goths but did Jordanes have an Alan father?

I don't know the answer, Michael. Maybe someone else can help.
Jordanes was an interesting guy; and if it weren't for his copying Cassiodorus, we'd know less about the Greutungi. We can safely posit Safrax (Saphrax) with an Alanic father, if not mother also, because he led Alans while Alatheus led Greutungi. (In Forging the Blade, I presented Safrax as an Alan.) ;-)

But they were military men. With Jordanes as a writer, we must really speculate. He was given bad marks by Michael Kulikowski. I saw interviews of Kulikowski in the Gothic portions of The Barbarians (History Channel docu). He looked to be about 35 years. When you're 35 years old, you have no right to criticize someone who is 500 years old. :x
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#64
Photo 
I have these images from this thread but could someone put a date and find location of these sagaris?


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Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
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#65
Photo 
Hi Folkert, I don't know about the middle image but the other two come from the book "Siberian Warriors and Weapons" which is written in Russian. But from Google Translate tells me that
From all the figures on the third image there are descriptions of the sagarii.
 Figure 7 on the top of the image is from the fifth to fourth centuries BC and is used for piercing and chopping.

 Figure 8 is from fourth century BC and is a flat blade and is intended to inflict penetrating puncture wounds.

 Figure 9 is also from fourth century BC but it has one side in the shape of a mallet or counterweight and this one is in the shape of an animal figure so possibly was of some ceremonial use.

 Figure 10 are depictions of battle scenes where the sagaris or bow is used from early iron age. See attachment below. The figures on the left were carved on the rocks in East Sagyr, Kazakhstan and the figures on the right were from the petroglyphs of the Mongolian Altai.


 Figure 11 is enlarged to show more of how the shaft was constructed with wooden wedges to lock head.
 All the remains of these weapons were found in Altai Mountains or Ukok plateau. Not sure of the people who presided over the Altai at this time though, Pazyryk, Sarmatian, Scythian, Tocharian or Issedones?? or some other group.  Hope this helps with your query.  Cool

Regards
Michael Kerr


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Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#66
Hi, Folkert and Michael

The middle image comes up so small that it's the size of a postage stamp. Originally, it was a full-sized photo posted by me. Now we are living in this new RAT format, saving on space. However, when photo attachments are posted within the text, you can click on them to get a full-sized view.

I found Folkert's middle image in "Nomads of the Eurasian Steppes in the Early Iron Age," edited by Jeanine Davis-Kimball. You will find it in Fig. 27, Chapter 17, "Tuva During the Scythian Period," by Nikolai Bokovenko. The entire book can be downloaded as a PDF, and it's the most complete history of the Scythians and Sarmatians I have yet found.

 Folkert's middle image shows two sagarii, the top one (a) has one end as a round spike; the bottom sagaris is illustrated with 2 views, side and top. Although Bokovenko does not say so, the sagaris was obviously made from bimetallic bronze (copper and tin). These sagarii extend from the earliest ones, such as the arsenical bronze examples found at Sintashta. An interim culture between Sintashta and Tuva-- the Tagar Culture-- used similar sagarii. According to Bokovenko, these axes had a wooden handle "up to 80 cm in length." The were pinned by a metal wedge, just like a modern axe. I hope some of this is helpful. Smile

Oh, and here is a nice postage-stamp sized attachment of the original style as found at Sintashta.
   

And here are the original Tuva versions:
   

The Tuva complex was 200 years earlier than the kurgans at Pazyryk. Maybe the Tuvians were the original "Issedones" recorded by Herodotus, or maybe that's just my romantic notion. Sleepy
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#67
Thanks Michael and Alanus.

You two have been very helpfull.
However I try to locate an actual find of an Sarmatian first century 0-100 AD Sagaris.
Does anywone know such a find other then in (period) depictions?
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
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#68
Hi
Does anyone know where the spilt off from this thread is? It happened in Feb 2013.
Since the migration the links have dropped.
I'm after info on Iazage fighting Tactics.
Rodger Williams
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#69
Hi, Childeric

I don't know if Iazage fighting tactics were ever discussed. This thread is 5 pages long, and somewhere near the beginning I mentioned that Iazages were not Sarmatians, but actually related to Western Scythians. They did not use Sarmatian/Alan tactics, no contus, no heavy armor, they used short swords (much like Scythian), and they were buried in flat graves rather than in an Alanic tumulus or catacomb grave. Considering their weapons (or lack thereof), their fighting tactics would have been atypical to the "Sarmatian norm." The confusion was amplified by a book by Littleton & Malcor, wherein they claimed Iazages were instrumental on producing Britain's "Arthur." Neither author was aware of the later placement into Britain of the Equites Taifali Seniors (the Bears) and Tailfali Iuniors (the Dragon & Pearl), two Roman units comprised of actual Sarmatain warriors... nor were they willing to admit there never was a person called "Arthur." Cool

On the Iazyges, your a-priori info would be in the earlier books of Ammianus Marcelinus, who discusses that tribe and its eventual defeat and importation into Britain.

To Folkert, there are several chapters on Sarmatians in the above-mentioned reference edited by Davis-Kimball; and maybe there's an illustration of a later sagaris. I wish you both success in your searches. Wink
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#70
Thanks Alanus

Reading your stuff on the thread and zipping through 'Studies in the History and Language of the Sarmatians , J. Harmatta’ I think I have got where I need to get or at least to a place where I can work from.

My take is they are heavy cavalry relying on the charge as opposed to plunging bowfire as a primary tactic and do not use horse armour. 
This possibly changes 275AD+ with the influx of Rhoxilani who, if I read Harmatta right, become top dogs and change, to a degree, the culture of the Iazyges which could have led to the use of horse armour; use of the bow as primary weapon is doubtful.
The Izyges may have been supported by 'serf' subjects at various points until they rebelled in the 4thC.

In terms of allies they seem to have had
92 AD            Sarmatians (Rhoxilani?) and Quadi
162-5               Vandals
250-334           Burgundi, Limigantes
358                  Taifal
373-5               Quadi

Does that seem about right?
Rodger Williams
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#71
Back to you, Childeric

I respected the late Janos Harmatta for his diligent and singular work on the "blending" of the Iazyges and Roxolani upon the Hungarian Steppe, thereafter referred by period Roman authors as the "Sarmatians." (Not a totally accurate definition). I think the various tribal associations you listed might be accurate, but (in total) it's not my field. The Taifali rode as the Tyrfingi Goth's cavalry for over 150 years, finally breaking from them when Athanaric got a bug up his ass about some trivial dispute and banned them from a (failed) redoubt he was constructing to ward off the Huns.

The Iazyges probably did use archery to some extent, and you're correct in they had no horse armor and wore light armor themselves. This may have changed to heavier personal armor after their affiliation with the Roxolani, but I don't believe they ever fielded a Roxolani-styled cataphract.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but my main interest lies earlier in the far East with the Altaic Cultures, the pre Yue-chi association with the Chinese, the late Saka, Wusun, and Kangju, and the final formation of the new confederation eventually known to the Romans as the Alans. This is the culture that bred the Akhal-teke conformation horse, known to the Han as "Heavenly" and "Blood-Sweating" Horses. Also, this is the beginning of the Late Sarmatian Period that would produce the two-handed "Late Sarmatian Type 1 Sword" as used by the early Alans-- the Aorsi, Sirakes, and Roxolani. This is When it All Happened, when it all came together. Wink
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#72
Thanks Alanus

Maybe we can have a chat about early Parthians sometime? I went to Nisa a couple of years ago.
Rodger Williams
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#73
A very nice Parthian bow was unearthed at Nisa. They were quite the archers. Just ask Pompey. (nuk, nuk, nuk)
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#74
Childeric wrote:
I’m after info on Iazage fighting tactics

 Cassius Dio mentions the battle on the ice between a Roman force of unspecified size who were pursuing an Iazyges raiding party on the frozen Danube river. His description of the battle was that some of the Iazyges staged a frontal attack while the rest rode around and attacked the flanks. It seems the Romans formed a compact square “facing all their foes at once”, using their shields for footing on the slippery ice. He wrote that the Iazyges had shields and spearshafts (lances) but makes no mention of the use of the bow. Tacitus also does not mention the bow in the defeat of the Roxolani on the lower Danube in 69 AD. Maybe in both cases where raids occurred in winter, the cold, wet and slippery conditions didn’t suit the use of the bow.

 Eszter Istvánovits and Valéria Kulcsár in their paper “Sarmatians through the eyes of strangers: The Sarmatian Warrior” have a few interesting insights and theories about the Iazyges through some images from Trajan’s column even though the Roxolani retreating from the Roman cavalry seems the most famous image of Sarmatians taken from the column. In the Sarmatswords image they calculate that in the image on the left, the Roxolani horseman’s sword is about 60-70 cm long while in the right image the Iazyges diplomat or bodyguard’s sword is about 80-90 cm long.  Maybe the Iazyges warrior was rich or an eminent person. I am no expert on swords but Eszter Istvánovits seems to know a bit about Sarmatian swords so I am interested what Alanus thinks.

In the other image Iazygesdiplomats2 in which many emissaries or diplomats were waiting for an audience with Trajan. The Iazyges warrior on the left seems to have his arm resting on a quiver which would indicate that the Iazyges still used the bow even as a secondary weapon. Both men are holding onto horses which are not your average steppe pony that seems to be associated with Iazyges and again indicates that the Iazyges, like all Sarmatians and steppe people in general, were excellent horse breeders and trainers who could produce quality horses for warfare, hunting and herding livestock. The authors also think that the warriors are wearing spangenhelm type helmets although it is hard to tell from the image. If they are indeed Iazyges horsemen then they are not heavily armoured like the Roxolani horsemen which we see depicted on the column and probably fought as medium to light cavalry. I suppose not every Iazyges could afford a horse, armour or swords so I think the bow was still an important weapon. It seems that the Iazyges and the Quadi/Suebi have had close economic and military ties from the time of the Suebic/Iazyges wars of Domitian when the Iazyges and Suebi/Quadi fought the Lugii and Rome in 89AD and were still fighting the Romans off and on up to 394AD when the Sarmatians nearly captured Gratian's bride to be. The Suebi even joined the great Alan/Vandal coalition, which possibly included Sarmatians as well as Alans in its invasion of Gaul and later on Spain beginning in 406. We never hear of Sarmatians in Pannonia again after that.

Harmatta mentioned in his paper about the lack of iron for tools & weapons so the Hungarian plain seemed to lack natural resources & this seemed confirmed in an old out of copyright book I read online which was written in 1836 called "Steam Voyage down the Danube with Sketches of Hungary, Wallachia, Servia and Turkey" by Michael J Quin. When writing about Hungary the author mentioned that in the mid 19th Century the great plains of Hungary were called Cumania and Jazyga, probably from the Cumans and Jaz or Iazyges. He added that these plains lack iron, stone, fuel, timber, salt and grain although there was plenty of grass and wetland areas for herding, hunting and fishing. So trade was important to the Iazyges. Just as an aside the book was written in 1836 before Buda and Pest were joined by a permanent bridge (Chain Bridge built in 1849) and the author while visiting Budapest wrote that both banks were joined by a bridge of 47 large boats joined together by chains and floored with planks. It was said to be three hundred yards in length (plenty of room for a battle on the ice,and was constructed in such a way that two or three boats with their flooring may be separated from the rest to let vessels pass whether they are going up or down the Danube. In winter it was necessary to take away the bridge all together bringing communications between the two towns to a standstill till the river is frozen over. He also mentioned that there still was a famous horse market in Budapest in 1836. Smile

Regards
Michael Kerr


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Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#75
Michael,
Thanks for such an informative response. 
Rodger Williams
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