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Roxolani and Iaziges
#86
I agree that having a thread for each tribe is a good idea—it seems that others besides myself are still interested in the Iazyges (or whoever was occupying the Hungarian Plain during the Marcomannic Wars and subsequenty got sent to Britain) and it would be nice to discuss them in depth, not just in passing comparisons to other tribes.


But I'd like to follow up one of Alanus's points. (By the way, sorry the text is different in spots. It's not letting me fix it.)


At the time M. Aurelius sent Iazyges into Britain, they were not "Sarmatized" by shoulder to shoulder contact with the Roxolani. That blending on the Hungarian Steppe came later. I'm exceedingly leery of historians who refer to Iaz as "Sarmatians" without checking actual cultural customs and weapons.”


Actually, Hungarian and Romanian scholars are still divided about when the Iazyges/Roxolani blend happened—before, during, or after the Marcomannic Wars—and how many waves it came in. (Actually they're still divided on when the Iazyges themselves got to the Hungarian Plain, and how many waves they came in.) But Eszter Istvanovits and Valeria Kulcsar, the main Sarmatian experts from Hungary (mentioned by Michael Kerr) are quite confident that several “eastern” waves had occurred from the beginning of the 2nd Century or even the late 1st, and continued up to and through the Marcomannic Wars, meaning by the time 175 AD rolled around, the Iazyges were more than just brushing shoulders with the Roxolani/Alans. To support this, Istvanovits and Kulcsar point to similarities in burial rites and clothing.


For example, in their paper “The Barbaricum in the Roman Period” we learn several things about burial rites in the Hungarian Plain:


  1. Iazyges buried their dead oriented to the south, whereas those “arriving at the close of the 2nd century” oriented theirs to the north. They also cite “The position of the horse harness in the grave, the types of horse harness and weapons” as proof of “the arrival of a mounted group from the Don delta at the time of the Marcomannic Wars.”

  2. While “It was earlier believed that the custom of raising a mound over the grave, so widespread among the Eastern Sarmatian tribes, was not practiced in the Great Hungarian Plain,” this is not entirely true. “Burial mounds from this period have only been reported from two areas: the northern fringe of the Great Hungarian plain (known to be inhabited by a “late Sarmatian/Alan group”) and some areas of the Backa and the Banat. Few burial mounds, so-called kurgans, have survived in Hungary since most have been ploughed away. Some can still be seen in areas that have not been drawn under agricultural cultivation, in marshy or forested areas, such as the burial mound groups in the Hortobagy, the Sarmatian kurgans in the Godollo Hills and the in the Backa and Banat. Graves without a burial mound that were enclosed by circular ditches open to the south, a practice recalling eastern burial rites, were first observed in the Great Hungarian Plain in the early 1950s. It is generally assumed that a mound had originally been raised over the burials enclosed by ditches. The cemeteries containing burials enclosed by a circular ditch show a rather even distribution in the Great Hungarian Plain. Only a handful of sites with such graves were known until the late 1970s. By 1980, their number grew to thirty and today some fifty sites with graves of this type have been registered. Almost every larger Sarmatian cemetery contains such burials, suggesting that this custom was fairly widespread and that these grave ditches had probably been missed during earlier excavations. The number of cemeteries in which the burial rite could be clearly be observed has increased greatly. It could be demonstrated in several cases that the graves enclosed by a ditch occupied a central position within a cemetery or a grave group, indicating that these were the burials of the paterfamilias or the ancestors of an extended family. The simpler burials were arranged around these graves. In other cases, the burials lay a little farther away and were arranged into rows. Cemeteries of this type were unearthed at Tö- rökszentmiklós–Surány and Endrõd–Szujókereszt. At Lajosmizse–Kónya-major, the female and male burials lay in separate parts of the cemetery, while at Sárdorfalva–Eperjes the men and the boys were buried with their weapons in the central part of the small cemetery surrounded by a ditch, while the women and the lower ranking members of the community were buried around them.”


  3. Hungarian graves do “contain fewer finds” and “the burial rite itself is also less varied” but like the previously mentioned “lack” of kurgan burials, this seems to be at least partly due to the fact that the Hungarian Plain is more prone to cultivation/industrialization; meaning that prominent kurgans or graves were either robbed or ploughed over. (And of course, because of their location, they would be more reliant on “plain” Roman trade goods as opposed to the familiar and “fancy” eastern ones.)

  4. “A number of previously unknown elements of the Sarmatians’ burial rites could be observed in the cemetery section excavated at Szõdliget–Csörög in the mid-1990s. The postholes uncovered in one of the graves indicated that the deceased had probably been laid on a bier, a practice that has also been documented among the Avars. The remains of fire beside or inside some graves, perhaps the remains of a ceremony to commemorate the dead, were noted at this site for the first time in the Carpathian Basin.” Now, the body being placed on a bier is a Scythian thing, so I can see how some would take that as an indication that they were more closely related to the Scythians. But the exact dating of the this grave isn't mentioned, and it's apparently the only one with a bier. But the fire beside/inside the grave I believe is common to both Scythian and Sarmatian burials. (Would have to brush up on that.)

Now, on to clothing. As the only woman in this group, I've naturally been researching women's clothing, and found that we have a good idea of what was worn in the Hungarian Plain from 130 AD onward. The costume consisted of boots, trousers, and a dress—all heavily beaded around the hems, sleeves, and neck. Exactly the same as in the east. Women also wore lots of jewelry—carnelian was one of the most popular gemstones in both areas. One noticeable difference is that eastern women wore gold jewelry, while those in the Hungarian Plain switched to bronze and silver as time went on, and also incorporated Roman-style accessories. However, according to Istvanovits and Kulcar, more “eastern” accessories popped up again arounds the Marcomannic Wars, implying that new immigrants had arrived from the east.


As for men, it's true their burials are poorer and often weaponless (and when they do have weapons, they are ring-pommel swords and daggers) but we also have strap-ends with tamgas, and shoes with spurs, also from around the Marcomannic Wars.


So yes, Iazyges or “Hungarian Plain” culture was different in significant ways, largely due to the geographic corner they found themselves in, and who their neighbors were. But nothing I've read about the Iazyges/Hungarian Plain (which is more than I've cited here) screams that they weren't Sarmatian. If anything, it seems that they were trapped in a cycle of losing their Sarmatian-ness, then regaining it whenever new waves of easterners showed up.


Links to papers:
http://regeszet.org.hu/images/angol/a_009.pdf


https://www.academia.edu/14461567/Andrea_H._Vaday_Eszter_Istv%C3%A1novits_Val%C3%A9ria_Kulcs%C3%A1r_Sarmatian_Costume_in_the_Carpathian_Basin._Klio_71._1989._107_114


https://www.academia.edu/11553693/Some_C..._._193_228


The last one is a more in-depth look at religion in the Hungarian Plain, particularly the burial of a 3rd century Sarmatian “priestess” whose diadem may have been in use since an even earlier date. Also does a good job of establishing the Roxolani/Alan presence in the Hungarian Plain in the 2nd century.)


The Hungarians (primarily Istvanovits and Kulcsar) have published a lot of work in English on Academia, as has Vitalie Barca from Romania. (I'm in the process of going through all his work.)
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Messages In This Thread
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 01-09-2013, 10:02 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-10-2013, 04:35 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-10-2013, 06:21 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-12-2013, 01:08 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-16-2013, 04:03 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-18-2013, 02:36 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-18-2013, 02:58 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Michael Kerr - 01-24-2013, 10:30 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-25-2013, 07:00 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Flavivs Aetivs - 01-25-2013, 07:05 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-25-2013, 07:48 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Flavivs Aetivs - 01-25-2013, 09:50 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-26-2013, 02:06 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-26-2013, 02:12 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Michael Kerr - 01-26-2013, 08:16 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Iosephus - 01-27-2013, 05:05 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-30-2013, 01:47 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Michael Kerr - 01-30-2013, 08:26 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-31-2013, 02:27 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-31-2013, 04:45 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-31-2013, 11:53 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Sutoris - 02-01-2013, 01:22 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Michael Kerr - 02-01-2013, 12:18 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Robert Vermaat - 02-01-2013, 04:46 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 02-05-2013, 10:53 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Renatus - 02-06-2013, 12:14 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 02-22-2013, 06:56 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 02-23-2013, 02:58 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 02-23-2013, 07:02 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Michael Kerr - 02-23-2013, 11:19 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 02-26-2013, 01:18 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Sutoris - 02-27-2013, 02:50 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 02-27-2013, 03:09 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by eduard - 02-28-2013, 12:45 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 02-28-2013, 08:16 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by eduard - 02-28-2013, 05:36 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 02-28-2013, 08:22 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Nadeem - 02-28-2013, 08:24 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-01-2013, 01:34 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by eduard - 03-01-2013, 02:23 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-01-2013, 11:53 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-01-2013, 11:25 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-04-2013, 10:04 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-04-2013, 10:39 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-04-2013, 11:54 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-05-2013, 11:17 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-05-2013, 11:26 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-11-2013, 08:32 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Folkert van Wijk - 03-11-2013, 10:32 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Sutoris - 03-11-2013, 11:01 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-12-2013, 12:28 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-24-2013, 10:00 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by eduard - 03-25-2013, 01:18 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-25-2013, 05:01 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-27-2013, 09:49 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-27-2013, 10:04 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-27-2013, 10:17 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Flavivs Aetivs - 03-27-2013, 10:18 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-27-2013, 10:40 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Flavivs Aetivs - 03-27-2013, 10:43 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-28-2013, 12:20 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-28-2013, 04:46 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-28-2013, 08:56 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Folkert van Wijk - 12-01-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 12-02-2015, 12:57 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-03-2015, 04:54 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Folkert van Wijk - 12-03-2015, 07:52 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-03-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-03-2015, 06:49 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-03-2015, 07:24 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-03-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-03-2015, 08:30 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-03-2015, 08:43 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 12-04-2015, 11:47 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-04-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 12-04-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-04-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 12-04-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Holly Herda - 12-28-2015, 11:41 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-29-2015, 03:20 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Nathan Ross - 12-29-2015, 03:15 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-29-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-29-2015, 05:47 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-29-2015, 07:16 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 12-30-2015, 01:12 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Holly Herda - 12-30-2015, 03:11 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-30-2015, 10:14 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Holly Herda - 12-31-2015, 03:40 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-31-2015, 06:22 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 01-01-2016, 05:17 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 01-02-2016, 02:32 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 01-02-2016, 04:47 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 01-02-2016, 06:38 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Holly Herda - 01-11-2016, 12:49 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 01-11-2016, 02:24 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by BoBoOlson - 11-20-2020, 09:33 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by BoBoOlson - 11-22-2020, 11:29 AM

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