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Roxolani and Iaziges
#87
Hi, Holly!

Thanks so much for some "new" reading material. I'm always looking for steppe tribe references. Sorry for being tardy answering your post; we had a snowstorm which upsets the order of things, and then I went to bed.

My statement that Iazyges were "not Sarmatians" goes back to a much earlier post on this thread. I don't take stock in Roman authors who used the blanket term, but rather believe archaeologists. To understand exactly who the Iazages were, we need to retreat to the beginning, before they reached the Hungarian Plain and eventually became "Sarmatized" through elbow contact with the Roxolani. Lets reboot:

Significant original characteristics of Iaz graves and swords (in particular) place them akin to Western Scythians, and they appear to be Sauromatae... as opposed to Sarmatians. Tadeusz Sulimirski phrased it this way, "The newcomers to Scythia were undoubtedly of 'Sauromatian' stock, probably the original tribe whose name 'Sarmatians' was later applied to other kindred peoples who subsequently moved to the Ukranian steppe land. The Iazyges, who are first recorded under various names (Iaxamatae, Ixibatai, etc.), and placed south of the lower Don, seem to have belonged to the same group." (Sulimirski, pp 101-02).

So, what then, makes the Sauromatae different than Sarmatians? "Sauromatian stock" was related to the Western Scythians, and like them they comprised purely Europoid features. When we look at the Sarmatians, we see a whole 'nother people. Back in the 1920s, Roztovtsev was the first to write about the earliest (5th to 4th Century BC) Sarmatians. His archaeological designation called them the "Prokhorovka Culture" from the grave sites in Orenburg Province. A much larger group of sites was later excavated just south of Prokhorovka at Filippovka. The latter site received worldwide attention due to its richness, and it was studied in depth... including exactly what makes or does not make a "Sarmatian." The consensus arrives to this: Early Sarmatian Cultures came from Eastern stock. In any given population there was an "Asiatic admixture." This is why, to some extent, Sarmatian graves and weapons differed from Iazygean ones.

There are a lot of different views on the subject, several of them enforcing my hypothesis we may be looking at what might be called "proto-Alans." Referring to the Filippovka kurgans, Anatolii Pshenichniuk remarks, "They seem to be the creation of an independent nomadic culture that owes its origin not to Sauromatian culture but to the tribes of the Saka-Massagetae circle. Scholars have long noted the similarity of burial rites in western Siberia, the southern Urals, and Central Asia. This resemblance testifies not only to cultural ties or sporadic incursions by southern or southeastern tribes but also to a direct link between the nomads of the southern Urals and the Saka-Massagetae to the east." (Golden Deer, p 30)

Early Sarmatian Cultures at Filippovka and Zubov left behind iron swords upwards to 88 cm or roughly 36 inches, much longer than Iazyge examples and Roman gladii. These are the same iron swords that begin to show up in China at roughly the same period-- 400 to 300 BC.

Now we turn to Early Sarmatian racial characterristics through R.M. Iusupov, "The people buried in the Filippovka kurgans were basically European, of a proto-European racial type, with eastern Asiatic features in the structure of the facial and nasal bones... The Asiatic admixture was likely of Altai origin. In skull shape and facial structure the Filippovka skulls most resemble those of Saka from Kazakhstan and the Aral Sea region and those of the (W)Usuns from eastern Kazakhstan." (Golden Deer, p 39) 

The Asiatic admixture differentiates the Sauromatae from the clinical Sarmatians. It shows up most noticeably in female graves where these "Mongoliod" features are as high as 30%. And, after more than 3,000 years, it explains why Olga Kurylenko looks like she does.

These traits may have arrived through neighboring proto-Mongols, but a significant donor would be the Chinese, considering the trade unions and marriages between the early Wusun and Yue-chi with Chinese princesses. Iusupov claimed it may have begun in the Altai, where we find a noble Chinese woman married to a chieftain. But, it actually goes back to the Shang Dynasty when "imported" Karasuk nobles drove Fu-Hao's chariot, while Indo-Iranian "magi" deciphered King Wu-Din's oracle bones. The eastern contact zone dates back to at least 1,200 BC. This zone was 3,000 miles east of the Western Scythian and Sauromatian (aka Iazyge) steppes. And to me, this is why the Iazyges were not Sarmatians. Wink

I love the supposition by one of the authorities on Hungarian Plain graves that they're so often flat because they were "plowed over." Fireplace hearths within Saka-Sarmatian graves have been found throughout the steppe belt, even going back to the Yamnaya Culture. As a rule, females had round hearths while males had square ones. Same hearth set-up in Indo-Aryan graves, so this is an old and wide-spread Indo-European trait. Good work, Holly, on gathering this info. Big Grin
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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Messages In This Thread
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 01-09-2013, 10:02 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-10-2013, 04:35 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-10-2013, 06:21 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-12-2013, 01:08 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-16-2013, 04:03 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-18-2013, 02:36 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-18-2013, 02:58 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Michael Kerr - 01-24-2013, 10:30 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-25-2013, 07:00 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Flavivs Aetivs - 01-25-2013, 07:05 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-25-2013, 07:48 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Flavivs Aetivs - 01-25-2013, 09:50 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-26-2013, 02:06 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-26-2013, 02:12 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Michael Kerr - 01-26-2013, 08:16 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Iosephus - 01-27-2013, 05:05 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-30-2013, 01:47 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Michael Kerr - 01-30-2013, 08:26 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-31-2013, 02:27 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Robert Vermaat - 01-31-2013, 04:45 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 01-31-2013, 11:53 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Sutoris - 02-01-2013, 01:22 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Michael Kerr - 02-01-2013, 12:18 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Robert Vermaat - 02-01-2013, 04:46 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 02-05-2013, 10:53 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Renatus - 02-06-2013, 12:14 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 02-22-2013, 06:56 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 02-23-2013, 02:58 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 02-23-2013, 07:02 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Michael Kerr - 02-23-2013, 11:19 PM
Roxolani and Iazages - by Alanus - 02-26-2013, 01:18 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Sutoris - 02-27-2013, 02:50 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 02-27-2013, 03:09 AM
Roxolani and Iazages - by eduard - 02-28-2013, 12:45 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 02-28-2013, 08:16 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by eduard - 02-28-2013, 05:36 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 02-28-2013, 08:22 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Nadeem - 02-28-2013, 08:24 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-01-2013, 01:34 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by eduard - 03-01-2013, 02:23 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-01-2013, 11:53 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-01-2013, 11:25 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-04-2013, 10:04 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-04-2013, 10:39 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-04-2013, 11:54 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-05-2013, 11:17 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-05-2013, 11:26 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-11-2013, 08:32 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Folkert van Wijk - 03-11-2013, 10:32 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Sutoris - 03-11-2013, 11:01 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-12-2013, 12:28 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-24-2013, 10:00 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by eduard - 03-25-2013, 01:18 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-25-2013, 05:01 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-27-2013, 09:49 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-27-2013, 10:04 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-27-2013, 10:17 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Flavivs Aetivs - 03-27-2013, 10:18 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-27-2013, 10:40 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Flavivs Aetivs - 03-27-2013, 10:43 PM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-28-2013, 12:20 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 03-28-2013, 04:46 AM
Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 03-28-2013, 08:56 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Folkert van Wijk - 12-01-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 12-02-2015, 12:57 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-03-2015, 04:54 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Folkert van Wijk - 12-03-2015, 07:52 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-03-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-03-2015, 06:49 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-03-2015, 07:24 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-03-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-03-2015, 08:30 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-03-2015, 08:43 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 12-04-2015, 11:47 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-04-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 12-04-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-04-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 12-04-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Holly Herda - 12-28-2015, 11:41 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-29-2015, 03:20 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Nathan Ross - 12-29-2015, 03:15 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-29-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by childeric - 12-29-2015, 05:47 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-29-2015, 07:16 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 12-30-2015, 01:12 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Holly Herda - 12-30-2015, 03:11 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-30-2015, 10:14 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Holly Herda - 12-31-2015, 03:40 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 12-31-2015, 06:22 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 01-01-2016, 05:17 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 01-02-2016, 02:32 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Michael Kerr - 01-02-2016, 04:47 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 01-02-2016, 06:38 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Holly Herda - 01-11-2016, 12:49 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by Alanus - 01-11-2016, 02:24 AM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by BoBoOlson - 11-20-2020, 09:33 PM
RE: Roxolani and Iaziges - by BoBoOlson - 11-22-2020, 11:29 AM

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