11-20-2020, 09:33 PM
Hi, first post.
There was much new to me in other old posts. Being long before the net, I am not use to footnoting info. Wiki has improved drastically over the last decade. And the years since this thread started. From wiki and similar sources, the Iazges were part of the Sarmatian Confederation. Many posts strike me as a bit prejudiced. A confederation is not a tribe. Sounds much like someone claiming the Huron are not Iroquois, nor the Cherokee. We do call it the Iroquois language, and the Iroquois was a confederation of five, later six tribes.
Yep, the further back in the lineup of the ‘Sarmatian’ confederated tribes being forced west, more east Asian blood one has captured through slaves or treaty marriages with the Chinese. One also married into the power tribes pushing the Sarmatians west, to slow them down. Genghis Kahn had red hair and blue eyes, (from my then astounded reading). A couple of generations after taking China and six wives each and each generation, the Mongols were as they now are. In my post am I making assumptions with lack of ‘moderner’ than the old posts? Well I find 1+1=3 better than 1=1= 1 ½. As did others who love knights in shining scale armor. And for reason I cannot understand ‘dislike’ the Iazges.
Like the Scythians before them, the Iazges and others of the Sarmatian Confederation often raided into rich Thrace; who were also good ahorse with bow and spear. On the ground where the Sarmatians were also good, they fought against the Thracian Rhomphaia, a pole arm; a 20-25-inch-long (50-60cm) blade with @ two foot/5-60cm long shaft; later Dacia for its gold, slaves and battle field plunder. (As someone mentioned here in their signature. A horse an empire can be conquered but only held by the infantry.
The spear with a shield was still the queen of battle, especially against someone without a shield even with a Rhomphaia. If one was good enough, held one’s line and nerve. I cannot see those pole arm users being completely unarmored, ‘boiled’ leather at least, and it being a high-status weapon, perhaps scale armor. I do not know where the ‘fact’ that they ran shrieking into battle as naked as a Celt, (OK unarmored) but all things are possible.
Somewhere, (How was I to know I needed to footnote, I was reading for me.) I read that the long Kontos of the Sarmatian’s screwed together, so ahorse it would be two six-foot shafts in a forward saddle boot. I have read that broken Kontos were found in Sarmatian graves. Is it possible the bronze middle of the screw together unit of the Konto was salvaged because of its value to the sons and fighting daughters of the Sarmatian Confederation? Such gizmo’s would be high tec and perhaps not made by nomads. It could be carried in a saddle boot on the other side from the bow and Gorytos bow case. Against a horse killing and leg chopping Rhomphaia or even worse Flax, a super long screw together spear from a boot, with a pointed iron or steel shoe, (pointed shaft protector) that could drive through any shield and two men if the spear reversed; where a blade might not drive through and or be able to pull it out, would be neat to have.
Fighting the Dacian, the Iazges had to face the even worse weapon of the same length as the Rhomphaia pole arm; the sickle shaped hole in the armor poking Flax. Which forced the Romans to dust of their antique lorica squamata, that they hadn’t used since shortly after the Republic, over their mail. Both the Iazges and the Thracian/Dacians had very good full scale armor and the Iazges did have the normal Sarmatian ‘Spangenhelm’. The Romans were forced to reinforce their helmets against the go over, through and around the shield armor piercing point Flax.
The now richer than Iazges, Roxolani were on the other side of Dacia so did not influence Rome as much as some here think IMO. The Romans had a number of battles with scale mail Iazges before the Dacians and Roxolani. Yes, in Hungry, I’m sure there was mare hoof scales made for laminar/scaled armor like back in the early days of the Scythians, but in a swampy middle Hungary, surrounded by poor mountain folk on three sides and mean Romans on the other, a bone arrowhead will kill un-armored farmers or deer. The way I ‘heard’ the cousins didn’t fight each other so the Roxolani would be on the opposite wing as the Iazges……. So it is true the Romans did get to know the Roxolani, well after fighting the Iazges. How ever it was the deadly, shield shattering, shield moving, armor piercing Flax that made them go to more and ‘heavier’ old armor mix.
In the long pushed west, moving Sarmatian Confederation; the Iazges were first or most westerly. Behind them were the Roxolani; above both of them, the Alans. The Iazges fought their way through the Dacian 'Empire'; through mountain passes where the super fierce Flax bearing Illyrian were at home. The Roxolani found there was no reason to move into a narrow swamp, so dealt with reality, the wealthy Dacians. For as long as they could, but they were being pushed west by more desperate tribes behind them.
The ransom for losing the war (one of many; some were also won) to Marcus Aurelius, was the return of 100,000 Roman hostages, many worth their ransom, and the 8,000 Iazges warriors taken into Roman legion service after losing one of their latter wars against Rome. Having won the war, the Romans would IMO insist that the Iazges be self-armored and weaponed. (Why should Rome pay big money to armor the losers, when their armor was more than good enough.)
Full armor would take away the noble class and their long swords that because of poverty would have been left to tribe fighters again IMO rather than buried. Poverty and tribal survival will change the honor that can be given the dead. As far as I can recall, gold too was scarce in Iazges Hungarian graves. (Not so when they were on the other side of Thrace.)
Some 5,500 of the 8,000 were originally sent to England/Britannia. The rest to northern Italy, from my reading. Some could have of course been with Marcus Aurelius, when he ran off to put down a rebellion, in I think Syria. 5,000 of the 5,500 Iazges were taken back to Europe for the many rebellions or other wars within the Roman Empire. The other 500 stayed at Ribchester.
From my reading (oft Wiki and blogs that show up) that seemed to happen long before Magnus Maximus stripped Britannia of its legions @ 390-5 AD. However, no sure date was given anywhere. (Thanks for the news that other steppe folks were also sent to England. Now to find out where.)
Swords, again without footnotes. In the Caucasus mountains were the people of the Siraki; the Kalybes who made swords from black iron sand for the Hittites who rode south to conquer Turkey and Syria; and the later Scythians and any others mentioned in the above posts. For good swords they had a monopoly on the great steppe and anywhere surrounding them.
So, the Hungarian Iazges would have been cut off from the great steppe sword makers. Roman swords made on the Rhine were “ok”. (The Danish bogs have enough of them, good enough to be sacrificed to the gods.) But the ones from Roman Toledo’s banded iron ore were then and now the greatest….(outside Indian Wooze steel.) The Kalybes had the same problem with black iron sand as the Japanese, when compared to the great steel of Toledo, that was as I just read common issue for Roman Legions.
The Japanese went away from the long sword and real long two-handed sword @ 900 AD. After this era the Japanese sword had to have a soft iron core to prevent breaking, because the steel was not good enough for such long swords. Without the soft iron core even as short of a sword as the katana which is considered a long sword in Japan, would break. The iron is poor enough as is, so one is not to block with the blade but deflect. Which is good advice as it, but come a ‘whoops moment’, the second klingle you heard was half your blade hitting the ground. The “great” Japanese sword is much a myth.
(Very pretty swords and very pretty blades. There was a Samurai exhibit in a local German museum, and I drooled over some hundred swords or bare blades….behind glass….sigh. I had read much before going to the museum. It was only a medium steel sword at best. That was all black iron sand allows. With 2,000 or more years or more years’ experience, I'm sure Kalybes made swords as good as the Japanese in both used black iron sand.
The Roxolani Kalybes long sword, would also have the same such weaknesses as the Japanese. A long sword really helps against the dreaded Dacian Flax. As long as it holds up. It would interest me if the buried Roxolani long swords showed reforging of breakage. Bronze 'long' swords were status/ceremonial swords, in they broke or bent easier the longer they were. It could well be that the Rhine smithed swords of the Romans were a tougher blade than the Kalybes. (Of course, I have only one Elbow….what do you mean elbows come in pairs?)
Breakage of black iron sand swords also explains why so many of the great steppe warriors had shorter swords; besides it's easier to stab someone and not fall out of the saddle than swing a huge long sword. (pre-stirrup.)
The Iazges in the swamps and moor land of 'Hungary' were poor, having no salt; very little slave farmed farm land. Their trade with the Roxolani was cut off by the fierce Dacians. So their trade of China/India goods was cut off. Poverty is caused by having to slaughter one's seed stock to survive the winter instead of salting the meat. Heresy, having to slaughter one’s darling horses, in one don’t have enough cattle left. Poverty squared. As far as I know none of the steppe peoples were noted miners or smiths outside the mountain Kalybe suppliers, except for gold.
(The Iazges also learned not to arm their many slaves to fight a major war. But that’s another story. It’s hard to think of someone being poverty stricken when one has the basic allotment of five or more slaves. But it was so. If I recall they had to kill some 100,000 their armed for a war slaves, after it; when they didn’t want to put the collar back on.)
The Roxolani, knowing how poor a place Hungary was for a raiding horse folk or even by then semi-nomadic, were pushed into Hungary by the tribes following. They did not move into the slums of Hungary by choice.
The last to arrive in Hungary were Magyars. To quote wiki, “The Khazars attempted to reconquer the Magyars both by themselves and with the help of the Pechenegs, another Turkish tribe. This tribe drove the Magyars from their homes westward to lands between the Dnepr and lower Danube rivers in 889.”
Shortly after that the Khazars became Jewish, so who were people of the Book, in they had two huge fights against 100,000 man Islamic armies and being Jewish, besides keeping the Muslims off their necks, allowed them to trade with Containable with less import fees. That worked well, into the Russ split their empire and cut out their trade routes to Containable some 150 years later.
There was much new to me in other old posts. Being long before the net, I am not use to footnoting info. Wiki has improved drastically over the last decade. And the years since this thread started. From wiki and similar sources, the Iazges were part of the Sarmatian Confederation. Many posts strike me as a bit prejudiced. A confederation is not a tribe. Sounds much like someone claiming the Huron are not Iroquois, nor the Cherokee. We do call it the Iroquois language, and the Iroquois was a confederation of five, later six tribes.
Yep, the further back in the lineup of the ‘Sarmatian’ confederated tribes being forced west, more east Asian blood one has captured through slaves or treaty marriages with the Chinese. One also married into the power tribes pushing the Sarmatians west, to slow them down. Genghis Kahn had red hair and blue eyes, (from my then astounded reading). A couple of generations after taking China and six wives each and each generation, the Mongols were as they now are. In my post am I making assumptions with lack of ‘moderner’ than the old posts? Well I find 1+1=3 better than 1=1= 1 ½. As did others who love knights in shining scale armor. And for reason I cannot understand ‘dislike’ the Iazges.
Like the Scythians before them, the Iazges and others of the Sarmatian Confederation often raided into rich Thrace; who were also good ahorse with bow and spear. On the ground where the Sarmatians were also good, they fought against the Thracian Rhomphaia, a pole arm; a 20-25-inch-long (50-60cm) blade with @ two foot/5-60cm long shaft; later Dacia for its gold, slaves and battle field plunder. (As someone mentioned here in their signature. A horse an empire can be conquered but only held by the infantry.
The spear with a shield was still the queen of battle, especially against someone without a shield even with a Rhomphaia. If one was good enough, held one’s line and nerve. I cannot see those pole arm users being completely unarmored, ‘boiled’ leather at least, and it being a high-status weapon, perhaps scale armor. I do not know where the ‘fact’ that they ran shrieking into battle as naked as a Celt, (OK unarmored) but all things are possible.
Somewhere, (How was I to know I needed to footnote, I was reading for me.) I read that the long Kontos of the Sarmatian’s screwed together, so ahorse it would be two six-foot shafts in a forward saddle boot. I have read that broken Kontos were found in Sarmatian graves. Is it possible the bronze middle of the screw together unit of the Konto was salvaged because of its value to the sons and fighting daughters of the Sarmatian Confederation? Such gizmo’s would be high tec and perhaps not made by nomads. It could be carried in a saddle boot on the other side from the bow and Gorytos bow case. Against a horse killing and leg chopping Rhomphaia or even worse Flax, a super long screw together spear from a boot, with a pointed iron or steel shoe, (pointed shaft protector) that could drive through any shield and two men if the spear reversed; where a blade might not drive through and or be able to pull it out, would be neat to have.
Fighting the Dacian, the Iazges had to face the even worse weapon of the same length as the Rhomphaia pole arm; the sickle shaped hole in the armor poking Flax. Which forced the Romans to dust of their antique lorica squamata, that they hadn’t used since shortly after the Republic, over their mail. Both the Iazges and the Thracian/Dacians had very good full scale armor and the Iazges did have the normal Sarmatian ‘Spangenhelm’. The Romans were forced to reinforce their helmets against the go over, through and around the shield armor piercing point Flax.
The now richer than Iazges, Roxolani were on the other side of Dacia so did not influence Rome as much as some here think IMO. The Romans had a number of battles with scale mail Iazges before the Dacians and Roxolani. Yes, in Hungry, I’m sure there was mare hoof scales made for laminar/scaled armor like back in the early days of the Scythians, but in a swampy middle Hungary, surrounded by poor mountain folk on three sides and mean Romans on the other, a bone arrowhead will kill un-armored farmers or deer. The way I ‘heard’ the cousins didn’t fight each other so the Roxolani would be on the opposite wing as the Iazges……. So it is true the Romans did get to know the Roxolani, well after fighting the Iazges. How ever it was the deadly, shield shattering, shield moving, armor piercing Flax that made them go to more and ‘heavier’ old armor mix.
In the long pushed west, moving Sarmatian Confederation; the Iazges were first or most westerly. Behind them were the Roxolani; above both of them, the Alans. The Iazges fought their way through the Dacian 'Empire'; through mountain passes where the super fierce Flax bearing Illyrian were at home. The Roxolani found there was no reason to move into a narrow swamp, so dealt with reality, the wealthy Dacians. For as long as they could, but they were being pushed west by more desperate tribes behind them.
The ransom for losing the war (one of many; some were also won) to Marcus Aurelius, was the return of 100,000 Roman hostages, many worth their ransom, and the 8,000 Iazges warriors taken into Roman legion service after losing one of their latter wars against Rome. Having won the war, the Romans would IMO insist that the Iazges be self-armored and weaponed. (Why should Rome pay big money to armor the losers, when their armor was more than good enough.)
Full armor would take away the noble class and their long swords that because of poverty would have been left to tribe fighters again IMO rather than buried. Poverty and tribal survival will change the honor that can be given the dead. As far as I can recall, gold too was scarce in Iazges Hungarian graves. (Not so when they were on the other side of Thrace.)
Some 5,500 of the 8,000 were originally sent to England/Britannia. The rest to northern Italy, from my reading. Some could have of course been with Marcus Aurelius, when he ran off to put down a rebellion, in I think Syria. 5,000 of the 5,500 Iazges were taken back to Europe for the many rebellions or other wars within the Roman Empire. The other 500 stayed at Ribchester.
From my reading (oft Wiki and blogs that show up) that seemed to happen long before Magnus Maximus stripped Britannia of its legions @ 390-5 AD. However, no sure date was given anywhere. (Thanks for the news that other steppe folks were also sent to England. Now to find out where.)
Swords, again without footnotes. In the Caucasus mountains were the people of the Siraki; the Kalybes who made swords from black iron sand for the Hittites who rode south to conquer Turkey and Syria; and the later Scythians and any others mentioned in the above posts. For good swords they had a monopoly on the great steppe and anywhere surrounding them.
So, the Hungarian Iazges would have been cut off from the great steppe sword makers. Roman swords made on the Rhine were “ok”. (The Danish bogs have enough of them, good enough to be sacrificed to the gods.) But the ones from Roman Toledo’s banded iron ore were then and now the greatest….(outside Indian Wooze steel.) The Kalybes had the same problem with black iron sand as the Japanese, when compared to the great steel of Toledo, that was as I just read common issue for Roman Legions.
The Japanese went away from the long sword and real long two-handed sword @ 900 AD. After this era the Japanese sword had to have a soft iron core to prevent breaking, because the steel was not good enough for such long swords. Without the soft iron core even as short of a sword as the katana which is considered a long sword in Japan, would break. The iron is poor enough as is, so one is not to block with the blade but deflect. Which is good advice as it, but come a ‘whoops moment’, the second klingle you heard was half your blade hitting the ground. The “great” Japanese sword is much a myth.
(Very pretty swords and very pretty blades. There was a Samurai exhibit in a local German museum, and I drooled over some hundred swords or bare blades….behind glass….sigh. I had read much before going to the museum. It was only a medium steel sword at best. That was all black iron sand allows. With 2,000 or more years or more years’ experience, I'm sure Kalybes made swords as good as the Japanese in both used black iron sand.
The Roxolani Kalybes long sword, would also have the same such weaknesses as the Japanese. A long sword really helps against the dreaded Dacian Flax. As long as it holds up. It would interest me if the buried Roxolani long swords showed reforging of breakage. Bronze 'long' swords were status/ceremonial swords, in they broke or bent easier the longer they were. It could well be that the Rhine smithed swords of the Romans were a tougher blade than the Kalybes. (Of course, I have only one Elbow….what do you mean elbows come in pairs?)
Breakage of black iron sand swords also explains why so many of the great steppe warriors had shorter swords; besides it's easier to stab someone and not fall out of the saddle than swing a huge long sword. (pre-stirrup.)
The Iazges in the swamps and moor land of 'Hungary' were poor, having no salt; very little slave farmed farm land. Their trade with the Roxolani was cut off by the fierce Dacians. So their trade of China/India goods was cut off. Poverty is caused by having to slaughter one's seed stock to survive the winter instead of salting the meat. Heresy, having to slaughter one’s darling horses, in one don’t have enough cattle left. Poverty squared. As far as I know none of the steppe peoples were noted miners or smiths outside the mountain Kalybe suppliers, except for gold.
(The Iazges also learned not to arm their many slaves to fight a major war. But that’s another story. It’s hard to think of someone being poverty stricken when one has the basic allotment of five or more slaves. But it was so. If I recall they had to kill some 100,000 their armed for a war slaves, after it; when they didn’t want to put the collar back on.)
The Roxolani, knowing how poor a place Hungary was for a raiding horse folk or even by then semi-nomadic, were pushed into Hungary by the tribes following. They did not move into the slums of Hungary by choice.
The last to arrive in Hungary were Magyars. To quote wiki, “The Khazars attempted to reconquer the Magyars both by themselves and with the help of the Pechenegs, another Turkish tribe. This tribe drove the Magyars from their homes westward to lands between the Dnepr and lower Danube rivers in 889.”
Shortly after that the Khazars became Jewish, so who were people of the Book, in they had two huge fights against 100,000 man Islamic armies and being Jewish, besides keeping the Muslims off their necks, allowed them to trade with Containable with less import fees. That worked well, into the Russ split their empire and cut out their trade routes to Containable some 150 years later.
