Sarmatian horses

[Alanus]

Michael,

Thanks for the two links. mile:

The 30,000 Alans living opposite Formosa were probably placed there by the Khan, since at that time the emperors were Juan-Juan (Mongols). It was Father Pellagrini who wrote about them, a guy who followed Marco Polo into China. Yup, maybe to guard against pirates. The Formosans were "primative" tribes at that time, prone to lots of tatoos and head-hunting. Hey, whatever turns you on! :woot:

[Michael Kerr]

Hi, while on horses for Sarmatians Renate Rolle in her book "the World Of The Scythians" mentions about the favoured types of horses for Scythians as having a preference for bay or chestnut horses for riding, rejecting horses with white markings on legs for practical reasons as the hoof horn of horses with white fetlocks were considered fragile which was important before horseshoes. The book has photos of three mummified horses from Pazyryk Kurgans in Altai even yielded information on contents of horses stomachs. Author thinks they are Achal-Teke horses. She mentions Pliny saying that Scythians rode to battle on mares because they can urinate while travelling but switched to geldings for battle because of their temperment. A wealthy Scythian with a herd of over a thousand horses might have 15 or 20 stallions, 500 mares and about 500 to 600 geldings and foals. Most horses found in Scythian Kurgans were older, about 18 or 20 years old. Herodotus mentions that Scythians loved hare hunts with broken or shortened spears which made it hard to easily kill hare and rider relied on skill and good horse to win. I don't know much about author but it is an interesting book.
Regards
Michael Kerr

[Vindex]

I've not come across her before either (so thank you for ther reference) and at least she's open about the use of geldings and isn't one of these people who insist that the ancients had mares and stallions only. I am strongly of the opinion that people who advocate the latter have never tried to manage a determined stallion - or mare for that matter - in season!

[Michael Kerr]

Hi Vindex, I made a mistake in my last post in regards to geldings. The figure of 500 for geldings should be 500 to 600 geldings and foals. Just as a matter of interest I shall post image from book of what seems to me well preserved horse mummies from Pazyryk Kurgan.. Sorry about quality but took it off book with ipad camera and the more I lightened it the more detail was lost. Same with the other one of scythians training horses. These images off "The World Of The Scythians" by Renate Rolle.


[attachment=7193]horsemummies.jpg[/attachment]


The other image concerns a query I had at the beginning of this thread about how would a heavily armoured Sarmatian mount his horse. The image is a sketch made of the Scythian figures depicted training horses on a Silver amphora from the Certomlyk kurgan (dated Fourth Century BC). Apparently the scythian on the top left is training the horse to kneel with one leg so a rider could mount it. Scythians like all races had their show offs, and some Scythians liked to pole vault onto the back of their horse with the use of their lance. Anyway this was also handy if a horseman was unhorsed and injured as if not too seriously hurt they could climb back onto their horse and make his escape.

[attachment=7192]scythianstraininghorses_2013-05-18.jpg[/attachment]

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Michael Kerr]

Vindex wrote:

I am strongly of the opinion that people who advocate the latter have never tried to manage a determined stallion - or mare for that matter - in season!

Ha, :grin: you just reminded me of when I worked for our local newspaper and we were covering the Australian "Inter-Dominion" which was Australia's premier Pacing event. The favourite was a local horse, a stallion and our paper sent down a journalist and photographer for a story and picture. While they were interviewing the owner who was proudly holding the reins of his horse, a previous 2 time winner, one of the attendants just happened to be leading a mare on heat past the interview point and the stallion who is normally good natured got very excited and difficult to handle. And the situation nearly got out of hand. But thankfully the trainer was close and got the situation under control and the owner and journalist weren't hurt. Lets just say when I was correcting the image for publication the next day I had to photoshop a few offending appendages from the image.
Sorry I know this post has nothing whatsoever to do with topic.

Regards
Michalel Kerr

[Vindex]

:woot:

Such fascinating images I have tracked down a second hand copy of the book! Thanks Michael.

[Alanus]

Hello to you both,

Rolle is certainly rising the "awareness factor." I remember but a few years ago (and I'm sure you do too) most posts on Scythian or Sarmatian horses here on RAT usually said something like, "Their horses were something like shaggy little Mongolian ponies." Or similar comments. Back then, it was assumed that "barbarians" didn't have knowledge about breeding anything. I don't think the comments were completely thought through, especially when talking about societies whose wealth was in horses. When I wrote Forging the Blade, I had cataphracts using geldings. Now, fiction appears a lot like truth. Well anyway, kudos to Renate Rolle.

[Michael Kerr]

In regard to Steppe breeding and geldings I was just wondering if someone with some knowledge of horse breeding might know. If a colt showed physical flaws in their conformation that they didn't want passed on to their herds or undesired personality traits, a Scythian/Sarmatian/Steppe herd owner could geld the horse who would still be able to work and hunt and still be used in warfare but cannot pass on defects but what about fillies or mares who might not conform to their ideal breed standards? Would they have been slaughtered for meat? If not I can only assume that they kept these mares with the herds and separated them when they were in season away from frisky stallions to avoid breeding.Although the bigger herd owners could probably dispose of them, the poorer people who probably owned one or two horses would not have this luxury. I know mares milk was important to Steppe people but to produce Mare's milk do they have to have foals which sort of defeats the purpose of separating them.

Regards
Michael Kerr

[M. Demetrius]

Amerindians (some of whom were among my ancestors) were a Stone Age culture for the most part before the 1500s when Europeans arrived to settle North America. They, especially the Plains tribes, knew how to breed horses. That they didn't breed the larger ones has to do with function.

They wanted a tough horse for riding down bison, chasing enemies, a horse that didn't need so much feed and was more disease resistant possessing stamina for the long ride. The Spanish high-bred horses were allowed to revert to some of the smaller sizes, though once in a while, a big horse would be born, and would be a status symbol, probably.

At least that's the ideas presented by some historians I read back in school. Who knows, really? We pretty thoroughly eliminated that culture with little study. But the point here is, if a Stone Age horse culture knew about breeding, how much more would the Mongols, Huns, et al., have understood how to pick characteristics desired? They knew how to make the most of what was there, and big horses weren't really needed until the Age of Knights, much later.

[Vindex]

Many horse breeders will say that the dam stamps the stock equally or sometimes more than the stallion and a good brood mare is just as vaulable as the sire.

If you have herds of horses, the natural selection will get rid of the larger defects, and yes, practicalities would say that a mare with unwanted characteristics would enter the food chain; probably mares past breeding or known to be barrren too.

Likewise stallions known to throw a bad foal would not be tolerated either.

[M. Demetrius]

Likewise stallions known to throw a bad foal would not be tolerated either.

Or you sell those to your not-so-friendly neighbors. :woot:

[Michael Kerr]

Thanks for answers, so I assume Steppe dwellers would be pretty ruthless with low quality stock.
In regards to plains Indians and smaller horses. A bloke I used to work with who was a keen horse racing fan always used to say "A good little horse will always beat a good big horse" and he never explained why. Anyway I have veered off topic. About the 20,000 mares mentioned earlier in this thread that Philip II imported from Scythia. Philip defeated the Scythians led by 90 year old king Altheas who died in the battle, who lived south of the Danube in 339 BC and received these horses as tribute and on the return journey through the Balkans territory of the Triballi (Thracians) who demanded a share of the booty for passing through their lands. Philip refused and a battle took place and the Macedonians were defeated, Philip got badly wounded in the leg and they lost nearly all their Scythian mares, not a good day for Philip. One of Alexander's earliest campaigns when he became king was to wreak revenge on the Triballi for the harm inflicted on his father and the Macedonian army.
Regards
Michael Kerr

[Alanus]

Hello Moi, Michael, & David,

Both of you bring up good points. When a stone age culture like the Amerindians adopts to selective horse breeding, what then of the early steppe cultures of Eurasia? As for breeding large horses, I think we are now aware from the finds in the Altai that stallions, and especially geldings, were large enough to finally carry a fully-armored warrior... later known as a cataphract. Really large breeds, like we see as modern European draft horses, were not needed. Nor do they show up in the archaeological stratae.

As mentioned in my earlier post, the idea which was prevelent only half a decade ago has now fallen by the wayside. :whistle:

To Michael: The steppe diet was "horse rich," with large intakes of mare-milk. Most likely, inferior mares were eaten, along with mutton and goat-meat. (Fish were also high on the diet). Today we tend to eat beef, but I don't believe it was popular in ancient times. Judging for the great amount of horse bones, especially prevelent at high warrior funeral celebrations, we know that sometimes hundreds of horses were killed for feasting. mile:

[M. Demetrius]

As for breeding large horses . . . especially geldings

Geldings, like mules are not the best breed stock.
:-D

[Vindex]

... the return journey through the Balkans territory of the Triballi (Thracians) who demanded a share of the booty for passing through their lands. Philip refused and a battle took place and the Macedonians were defeated, Philip got badly wounded in the leg and they lost nearly all their Scythian mares, not a good day for Philip.
Regards
Michael Kerr

May be why the Thracians are repudtedly said to have very good horses and provide good auxiliary cavalry. I don't think it is a conicidence that Thacian and Sarmatian horsemen are found in the UK either with their own horses, are breeding here (turning coversation neatly back to the Dales pony's ancestry!)