Update on 1st Century Sarmatian Weapons

[Sutoris]

Sounds like you've got some work cut out for you. I'm assuming Folkert was making a reference to the same item.

That's why I posted this, better warn future buyers it's not the thing we'r looking for.

At the moment, there's an original set of jade Han fittings (scabbard chape, guard, and scabbard slide) for sale on Ebay. All of it is selling separately, and it totals around $5,000. ;-)

Pfff, you can buy a complete Jade (resin) Sword on Ebay for $118, free shipping :whistle:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jade-sword-carbo...20cf979c57

[Alanus]

Oh, Wow! :woot:

I could save $4082. What a bargain! 8-)

Actually, I just checked it out. Most of these $100+ blades are so soft you can bend them. But the resin furnishings are interesting. I have an extra folded steel blade that might look cool with these Han-styled fittings. Not authentic, but who can afford real jade?

[Condottiero Magno]

The book is available as a pdf downmoad via SCRIBD. A day "pass" of $9.50 (or so) will get you access to this and MANY other really useful and interesting books or articles. You'd be amazed what's in there!

Thanks for the location, Moi

The book is not on Amazon, so SCRIB is a helpful, perhaps only, source. We have been waiting for years for a book like Aleksandr Simonenko's. To often, the weapons found in Sarmatian graves are not discussed in print while great praises and many photos show us Sarmatian art. Nothing wrong with "aht" (as we say in Maine) but we have really needed an handle on their weapons... sort of speaking. :whistle:

A quick Google search and I found one US stockist of Sarmatian riders of North Pontic region(ISBN:9785846509115), but no idea if it's still in stock.

[Alanus]

Hey, Tongar

Thanks for the tip on Simonenko. A hard one to find. :dizzy:

But at least we can get the PDF version.

[Condottiero Magno]

Hey, Tongar

Thanks for the tip on Simonenko. A hard one to find. :dizzy:

But at least we can get the PDF version.

Google only produced less than a page of results and it was by chance I clicked that link, as normally obscure titles end up in web bibliographies and then there are the sites that list a sought after book, but turn out to be a link to another, usually Amazon and it's out of print.:mad:

Is the English translation in full or is it partial? Can't read Cyrillic, so not sure if the introduction in Russian is the same one in English or it's condensed, though the section 1 looks about the same in English, going by the dates and other numbers.

I'd have preferred the Russian and English versions to be on adjacent pages, like D. Oaks or Loeb titles, as it'd make it easier to follow the diagrams/illustrations/pictures with the text.

[Alanus]

I'm happy enough with the PDF version, with all of its flaws and the English trans at the back. I'm familiar with the weapons already; it just defines them better. :whistle:

[Folkert van Wijk]

I am working on a type 1 sword at the moment with a blade I had lying around that hapens to have a rather long tang.
And I am wondering about a view things...:

All these Han period reproduction swords have lot's of "fancy" rope-work around the scabbard and handles.
Where does this idea come from? I can imagine some one figured out the that the scabbard-slide would have been tied somehow. But about the handle, one thinks it would function without the rope also...

[Sutoris]

I'm going to tie my slide down with rawhide sealing it with varnish after it's dry, and the handle with leather tong.

[Alanus]

All these Han period reproduction swords have lot's of "fancy" rope-work around the scabbard and handles.
Where does this idea come from? I can imagine some one figured out the that the scabbard-slide would have been tied somehow. But about the handle, one thinks it would function without the rope also...

The wooden scabbard was shallow notched, the slide placed over it, then wrapped securely with twine. I imagine materials varied: cotton, hemp, silk, and braided horsehair. Sutoris is using rawhide; good idea. Horsehair would be strongest, but difficult to make nowadays.

The reason the grip was also covered-- a more secure grasp, less easy to slip from the hand. ;-)

[Michael Kerr]

Hi, this particular thread seems the best one for my question.
In regard to "siyahs"
Do they add to distance you could shoot an arrow? Or
Do they add to penetrative power of arrow?
Or both? Also
Does having "siyahs" with a longer draw require longer arrows?

Regards
Michael
Kerr

[koechlyruestow]

The siyah works like a kind of lever in the second half of the draw, so to the archer it seems as if he has to use less force as he starts to aim, W.F. Paterson in his "The archers of Islam" in Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient 9(1966). Also, by shortening the length of the curving part of the bow, it diminishes its kick and its vibration, concentrating al the released energy in the discharge of the arrow, Bergman,McEwan&Miller "Experimental Archery" in Antiquity 62(1988).
You seem very interested in archery, perhaps you know Latham&Paterson's Saracen Archery? Another good one is Arab archery by Faris&Elmer, Boudot-Lamotte's Contribution a l'étude de l'archerie musulmane, Louis Mercier La chasse et les sports ches les Arabes, McEwen's "Persian Archery Texts" in The Islamic Quarterly 18 3/4(1974) and the articles by Bede Dwyer on www.atarn.org.

[Michael Kerr]

Thanks for the info Eduard, I know nothing about archery, that's why I appreciate any help as I seem lost when people discuss it on this site.

[Michael Kerr]

Hi, just wondering if there is any books or articles about the construction of contus? Most books available on Sarmatians and the fact that in most grave sites the head of the contus is left and wooden shaft is gone. I only ask as most web sites or books just state that contus shaft used by Sarmatians was usually made of fir and can be anything in length from 3.5 metres upwards.
I was reading a book called "Eastern Influences on Polish Arms" by Michal Dziewulski which is about "Polish Hussars" which I know is not covered by RAT but I am curious if contus was made in a similar way. It mainly mentions that Polish Armies were influenced by Hungarian, Turkish and Crimean Tartar battle tactics and weapons. The author discusses the long lance used by the hussars and how weapon was manufactured and used. Basically 3.5 metres to 5.5 metres long made of fir wood with maybe aspen in fore part of lance to lighten the head. Lance was split along its length and both sides hollowed out and then joined back together with glue and reinforced with string webbing which was covered in tar. The Polish lance had a weighted apple at the hand grip so it could be used one handed, unlike Sarmatians who used contus with two hands. Anyway the Polish lance was created to break on first impact and then discarded. Could an ancient era contus have been constructed in the same way to break the line and then discarded to get stuck into enemy with sword and sagaris.
Speaking of Sagaris I noticed that Hussars used a version of sagaris called Nadziaks(Polish War Hammers from Turkish word Nadshak).It differs from sagaris in that instead of axehead to help lop of enemies heads it had a hammer head to punch through armour. It was a sign of high status and was eventually banned from Polish court to stop killings over arguments amongst lords. Image below.


[attachment=7122]nadziaks-web.jpg[/attachment]

Any help would be appreciated

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Alanus]

Michael,

Close, but "No Sagaris!" :grin:
Real close, though, and still a mean weapon.

I'd say that 3.5 metres is close. I always called it a "12-foot contus." ;-)
Don't know if there are any books dealing with their construction. A good repro head can be gotten, called the "European Spear Head," and it will fit a 1 1/4 inch shaft. Fir would be good for the shaft, not pine (no strength) and not ash (too heavy).

Sorry, not all that much help. :dizzy:

[Michael Kerr]

Hi Alanus, I haven't seen you on RAT for a few weeks, were you on holidays? Thanks for reply. This book just got me thinking about Contii as even with stirrups and bigger horses the hussar lance was designed to break on first impact to avoid injuring rider and horse and Poles based their lance on Hungarian lance. As you noted a few times in previous threads "Steppe people were very resourceful." So maybe they hollowed out their lances for the same reasons especially as they didn't have stirrups although I realise that they probably had a high saddle arch to help take impact. Hussars aimed their lance at belly of opponent even with breastplate as lance would pierce them. Sarmatians had shield walls to pierce if they were put in a position to be able to attack infantry where Polish hussars didn't so I am wary of comparing different fighting styles of different eras.
About the Nadziaks, they doubled as a form of walking stick amongst the Polish nobility and the long shaft made me think of sagari.

Regards
Michael Kerr