Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor - New Book

[Paul Bardunias]

I think this is the Dura twinned linen greave

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Dan, the information about Philip's armour comes from the current ephorate of Archaeology and headmistress of the museum of Vergina with whom I spoke personally about the cuirass of Philip. She saw the MI reconstruction and pointed out how it was wrong. I think they found the purple dye under the gold decoration.
Besides. There is another identical armour from another Macedonian tomb, which also had an iron helmet and the only iron greaves ever found. It also has traces of leather and fabric.

Khaire
Giannis

I think that armor is an attempt to render a textile or leather item in metal- like the pilos and boeotian helms.  I have long wondered though if there were iron plates secreted coat of plates style in some of these.  I even found a possible candidate, a riveted fragment that looked just like the chest of a coat of plates from a Bactrian dig.  I posted it on here years ago, not sure I could find it now.

[Paullus Scipio]

Dan, the information about Philip's armour comes from the current ephorate of Archaeology and headmistress of the museum of Vergina with whom I spoke personally about the cuirass of Philip. She saw the MI reconstruction and pointed out how it was wrong. I think they found the purple dye under the gold decoration.
Besides. There is another identical armour from another Macedonian tomb, which also had an iron helmet and the only iron greaves ever found. It also has traces of leather and fabric.

Khaire
Giannis

Would I be correct in assuming you mean the this rather damaged example from Aghios Athanasios from the tomb with the famous frieze (tomb III)? Very similar to Philip II's famous example, though apparently without the rich decoration.......

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Paul Bardunias wrote:

"I think this is the Dura twinned linen greave"

Isn't this twined linen piece now thought to be a greave liner rather than the greave itself?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yes Paul, i meant this armor! Evidently it was made by the same workshop.
One can see the frame in this one clearly.

[Dan Howard]

Isn't this twined linen piece now thought to be a greave liner rather than the greave itself?

It was always thought to be a greave liner. James' original report said it was a greave liner. Armour needs to be thicker - hence the proposal for duplex (two layers of twined linen) and triplex (three layers of twined linen) constructions.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

OK so I found the article about the iron cuirass from Agios Athanasios.
It would in fact not look less splendid than the oen in tomb II in Vergina, although some cheaper options seem to have been adopted.
It had wooden lions that were gilded, as ring holders for the shoulders, and solid gold rings.
It had gilded silver rosettes as ring holders on the body.
There are traces of gold bands in the sides.
There are traces of gilded surface on the outside.

There was leather on the inside that was turned outward, very clearly visible under the armpits.
But there was also leather on the outside, and two layers of different thickness fabric, first the thicker and then the thinner.

It is not clear from the article if these layers were over the leather or the other way round, or even if they were found on different parts of the outside of the cuirass.
They are said to be visible with naked eye, but they have been also identified with electronic microscope.

It quotes Andronikos as believing Philip's cuirass to have had fabric on the outside (not just covered with some fabric, like a rug or cloak).

The two layers of fabric are very interesting in that hoplite shields from Macedonia had exactly the same cover! Perhaps a good base for stucco cover?

[Paul Bardunias]

The two layers of fabric are very interesting in that hoplite shields from Macedonia had exactly the same cover! Perhaps a good base for stucco cover?

I knew it!  its not armor, its a folding aspis!

I'm not sure the latest thought on the greave-vs-greave liner, but its pretty thick, around half a cm if I recall.  A bit of overkill for a liner.

[Paullus Scipio]

[quote pid='338779' dateline='1472164480']

I knew it!  its not armor, its a folding aspis!

I'm not sure the latest thought on the greave-vs-greave liner, but its pretty thick, around half a cm if I recall.  A bit of overkill for a liner.

When one considers just how susceptible to blows, and how painful blows to the shin can be, I wouldn't call 5 mm of padding 'overkill' !
Consider modern shinpads for soccer or hockey........

[Dan Howard]

The wear pattern on the cloth makes it pretty clear that it is a greave liner. Leg armour could be lighter but textile armour should be 1-2 cm thick on the torso. Some Medieval examples are an inch or more in thickness.

[Paul Bardunias]

[quote pid='338780' dateline='1472164756']
When one considers just how susceptible to blows, and how painful blows to the shin can be, I wouldn't call 5 mm of padding 'overkill' !
Consider modern shinpads for soccer or hockey........

I'm not sure "padding" is the right term for twinned linen.  It would be pretty hard.  I know nothing about roman greaves, but Greeks did not need 5mm of padding beneath theirs.  But I really don't have a dog in that fight.  I just use it to show what twinned linen looks like.  As Dan said, as armor I would expect multiple layers overlayed, or more interestingly if you have a crafty loom worker, the multiple layers are directly woven together as one piece in a complex weave.

[Dan Howard]

The liner's primary purpose is to improve the fit and reduce chafing. It doesn't need soft padding like a cushion.

[Lysimachos]

I think that armor is an attempt to render a textile or leather item in metal- like the pilos and boeotian helms.  I have long wondered though if there were iron plates secreted coat of plates style in some of these.  I even found a possible candidate, a riveted fragment that looked just like the chest of a coat of plates from a Bactrian dig.  I posted it on here years ago, not sure I could find it now.

Is this the riveted fragment you were thinking of?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4299868?seq...b_contents

[Dan Howard]

Is there any more than those two pieces? That isn't enough to even determine whether it is armour.

[Paul Bardunias]

I think that armor is an attempt to render a textile or leather item in metal- like the pilos and boeotian helms.  I have long wondered though if there were iron plates secreted coat of plates style in some of these.  I even found a possible candidate, a riveted fragment that looked just like the chest of a coat of plates from a Bactrian dig.  I posted it on here years ago, not sure I could find it now.

Is this the riveted fragment you were thinking of?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4299868?seq...b_contents

Thanks! That's it.  Sure there is not enough to be sure its armor, and even if it is, it is more likely to be an external plate, just a riveted bronze cuirasse.  But it is what I would expect plates beneath a textile coat to look like, so it warrants consideration.  As with so many things we dig up, if an interpretation like this is not even on the radar, it will never be described.

Many parts of Greece are rich in iron- Sparta so rich they used it for money.  There should be more iron armor in my opinion.  It could have all been scales, though I know of no iron scale hoards from Greece.  But if it were some sort of thorax plate or plates, what are the chances that an archaeologist would recognize it as such if found alone?

[Lysimachos]

Is there any more than those two pieces? That isn't enough to even determine whether it is armour.

Nope, that's it.  I'm not sure why the authors think it's armor at all.  The article seems to provide no further evidence.  They don't even seem to think that it is some sort of purpose built coat-of-plates type armor, but rather a repaired muscle-type cuirass.

[Paullus Scipio]

Dan Howard wrote:
"It is also another nail in the coffin of the construction in the Aldrete book. Arrian specifically says that Alexander's armour was made of two layers of, presumably, thick cloth, not a dozen or so layers of regular cloth."


A Typo there, Dan , the reference is actually Plutarch 'Alexander' 32 at the battle of Gaugemala;

The Penguin classics translation is "...a thickly qilted linen corselet which had been among the spoils captured at Issus...." whilst the Loeb has as you correctly posted the more literal translation "...a breastplate of two-ply linen from the spoils taken at Issus."

The Greek reads : "ἐπὶ δὲ τούτῳ θώρακα/thoraka διπλοῦν/twofold or doubled λινοῦν/linen ἐκ τῶν ληφθέντων ἐν Ἰσσῷ."

If we look at the Alexander mosaic of the battle of Issus, we see to the right of Darius' chariot his relatives and nobles wearing red tube-and-yoke corselets with a diamond pattern with dots in the  centre which appears to be quilting, and which are consistent with Plutarch's description.

As you say, far removed from the Aldrete/Bartell glued multiple layers of linen.

It is also the only time a Greek or Macedonian is described wearing a 'linen corselet', and it is not Greek, but a captured Persian example!