09-06-2016, 11:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016, 11:49 PM by Paullus Scipio.)
Robert Vermaat wrote:
"I imagine the 'thorax conundrum' is very similar to the 'lorica conundrum'? Generic use of words in unclear sources, modern invented terminology? "
A good point, Robert. There are some interesting parallels between Greek and Roman literature. In Latin we have the term for mail body armour [lorica hamata] and the term for scale body armour [lorica squamata], but nowhere are we told the name of the early Imperial iron strip armour so familiar to all as 'Roman armour', so we have the relatively modern invented term 'lorica segmentata' ( and there are other examples of Roman equipment whose name we do not know).
The ancients, it seems, whether Greek or Roman were not overly good at using or explaining technical terminology when it comes to arms and armour.
However, there is one very important difference. Whilst we have ample evidence for the existence and use of the 'lorica segmentata' from iconography and archaeology, there is NO evidence of any sort for the existence of a Greek 'thoraka'/body armour made of multiple layers of glued linen and called a 'linothorax'.
Paul Bardunias wrote:
"One of my problems with this whole discussion is that even if we accept that the ancient Greeks had both linen and leather armor, it tells us nothing about if either or both were the Tube and Yokes we see on vases. The Spolas reference could easily be satisfied by a garment cut like the leopard skin in the image below (it hangs from the shoulders), while the other two images can surely satisfy the term linothorax (note how thick that garment is over his shoulder in the last pic)."
I wouldn't agree that at all! Short of a pot showing a Tube-and-Yoke corselet with a label attached saying 'This is a spolas', one is simply not going to get absolutely conclusive evidence. I don't agree that the leopard skin "hangs from the shoulders" at all - otherwise ALL pullover garments do ! Nor do any of the three images satisfy the invented term 'linothorax'. A 'thorax' might describe any body-covering or garment, but none of your three illustrations show a hoplite, and the garments in question are clearly not 'armour'.
The leftmost figure with diamond patterned garment is too indeterminate to decide what he represents, the central figure with 'zig-zag' pattern is not a 'hoplite' but conceivably might be a hunter, if his garment is meant to be protective, and the rightmost figure is possibly a priest, perhaps Dionysiac given the attributes.
Interestingly, I do know of a hoplite shown in a protective(?) kilt/perizoma as his only protective gear aside from shield and Boeotian helmet. It is a depiction of Theseus fighting Amazons by the painter Polygnitos [floreat 440-430] on a 'Stamnos' vase. The 'perizoma' is depicted as smooth/uncreased and has the same 'zig-zag' pattern as your central figure, and it is clearly depicted worn over clothing. It is generally interpreted as being made of a thick blanket type material, perhaps felt.
Also of interest is that Theseus' companion Rhoikos has only his cloak draped over his arm for protection. [see attached].
As to 'spolas', the term only occurs twice; in Xenophon's anabasis, at IV.1.18 when Xenophon tells us of the power of the Carduchi longbow when Leonymus the Spartan is killed by an arrow which penetrates his shield and 'spolas', and also at III.3.20 when the cavalry volunteers, being shieldless, are equipped with donated 'thorakes' and 'spolades'.
The second user is Aristophanes in his play "The Birds" when a character arranges a gift of a 'spolada' to keep out the cold for a poor poet he is trying to be rid of.[line 935] The poet then complains he has only the 'spolas', but no tunic, and is given a tunic as well.[945]
'Spolas' is usually translated as leather or fur jerkin in this instance ( as Giannis refers to).
I don't believe that is true either, at least not entirely. As I have stated a number of times, we should adopt a 'holistic' approach wherever possible regarding all evidence - literary, iconographic and archaeological, for each has its weaknesses, especially if taken alone in isolation.
In this instance we have a number of iconographic depictions of Spartan hoplites, mostly from the archaic period in bronze 'thorakes', some in 'Tube-and-Yoke', and some late depictions in no armour ( the same is true of hoplites generally). The Spartan Leonymus was shot through his 'spolas' ( defined as leather body armour), and hence by elimination, this must refer to the 'Tube-and-Yoke' corselet ( unless you are going to postulate the unlikely possibility that it refers to some other type of armour, never recorded in the vast iconography! )
"I imagine the 'thorax conundrum' is very similar to the 'lorica conundrum'? Generic use of words in unclear sources, modern invented terminology? "
A good point, Robert. There are some interesting parallels between Greek and Roman literature. In Latin we have the term for mail body armour [lorica hamata] and the term for scale body armour [lorica squamata], but nowhere are we told the name of the early Imperial iron strip armour so familiar to all as 'Roman armour', so we have the relatively modern invented term 'lorica segmentata' ( and there are other examples of Roman equipment whose name we do not know).
The ancients, it seems, whether Greek or Roman were not overly good at using or explaining technical terminology when it comes to arms and armour.
However, there is one very important difference. Whilst we have ample evidence for the existence and use of the 'lorica segmentata' from iconography and archaeology, there is NO evidence of any sort for the existence of a Greek 'thoraka'/body armour made of multiple layers of glued linen and called a 'linothorax'.
Paul Bardunias wrote:
"One of my problems with this whole discussion is that even if we accept that the ancient Greeks had both linen and leather armor, it tells us nothing about if either or both were the Tube and Yokes we see on vases. The Spolas reference could easily be satisfied by a garment cut like the leopard skin in the image below (it hangs from the shoulders), while the other two images can surely satisfy the term linothorax (note how thick that garment is over his shoulder in the last pic)."
I wouldn't agree that at all! Short of a pot showing a Tube-and-Yoke corselet with a label attached saying 'This is a spolas', one is simply not going to get absolutely conclusive evidence. I don't agree that the leopard skin "hangs from the shoulders" at all - otherwise ALL pullover garments do ! Nor do any of the three images satisfy the invented term 'linothorax'. A 'thorax' might describe any body-covering or garment, but none of your three illustrations show a hoplite, and the garments in question are clearly not 'armour'.
The leftmost figure with diamond patterned garment is too indeterminate to decide what he represents, the central figure with 'zig-zag' pattern is not a 'hoplite' but conceivably might be a hunter, if his garment is meant to be protective, and the rightmost figure is possibly a priest, perhaps Dionysiac given the attributes.
Interestingly, I do know of a hoplite shown in a protective(?) kilt/perizoma as his only protective gear aside from shield and Boeotian helmet. It is a depiction of Theseus fighting Amazons by the painter Polygnitos [floreat 440-430] on a 'Stamnos' vase. The 'perizoma' is depicted as smooth/uncreased and has the same 'zig-zag' pattern as your central figure, and it is clearly depicted worn over clothing. It is generally interpreted as being made of a thick blanket type material, perhaps felt.
Also of interest is that Theseus' companion Rhoikos has only his cloak draped over his arm for protection. [see attached].
As to 'spolas', the term only occurs twice; in Xenophon's anabasis, at IV.1.18 when Xenophon tells us of the power of the Carduchi longbow when Leonymus the Spartan is killed by an arrow which penetrates his shield and 'spolas', and also at III.3.20 when the cavalry volunteers, being shieldless, are equipped with donated 'thorakes' and 'spolades'.
The second user is Aristophanes in his play "The Birds" when a character arranges a gift of a 'spolada' to keep out the cold for a poor poet he is trying to be rid of.[line 935] The poet then complains he has only the 'spolas', but no tunic, and is given a tunic as well.[945]
'Spolas' is usually translated as leather or fur jerkin in this instance ( as Giannis refers to).
(09-06-2016, 12:31 PM)Paul Bardunias Wrote:(09-06-2016, 06:34 AM)Paullus Scipio Wrote: Julius Pollux: ". "Spolas de thorax ek dermatos, kata tous omous ephaptomenos, hos Xenophon ephe "kai spolas anti thorakos" is about as clear as we could hope for."
Sure, but that reference can be satisfied by the vest-like cut of the garment shown above. Moreso because the line that comes after it in Pollux compares to a Lybian leopard skin garment!
My point is simply that we need to acknowledge that we are interpreting a connection that is not explicitly passed down to us.
I don't believe that is true either, at least not entirely. As I have stated a number of times, we should adopt a 'holistic' approach wherever possible regarding all evidence - literary, iconographic and archaeological, for each has its weaknesses, especially if taken alone in isolation.
In this instance we have a number of iconographic depictions of Spartan hoplites, mostly from the archaic period in bronze 'thorakes', some in 'Tube-and-Yoke', and some late depictions in no armour ( the same is true of hoplites generally). The Spartan Leonymus was shot through his 'spolas' ( defined as leather body armour), and hence by elimination, this must refer to the 'Tube-and-Yoke' corselet ( unless you are going to postulate the unlikely possibility that it refers to some other type of armour, never recorded in the vast iconography! )
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
