Roman perception of time

[Musivarius]

I've been looking at methods of work for laying a mosaic floor which make the process both easier and faster. These contradict the current theories and when i say, 'This works, it's faster and makes a lot more sense' I get the reply 'But the Romans didn't need to have it done faster as they had a different perception of time to us, it didn't matter that it would take a long time'.

I've heard this on a number of occasions but I can't find any references to back this up, and the people I ask can't either (heard from someone and now take it as fact?). Anyone heard this, got a reference?

[Vindex]

Have to say that's a new one on me about time perception. I would say impatience or patience is timeless.

Perhaps owners had other houses to live in but I would imagine having a new floor would be very much like today. Planning time, get it laid or be penalised for not working to contract.

I wouldn't want my new villa full on sweaty, "geeky" mosaicists!!

[Renatus]

You know the old joke:

An Irishman and a Spaniard are discussing their respective cultures. "Tell me," says the Spaniard. "Is there any word in Irish equivalent to mañana in Spanish?"

"Yes," replies the Irishman. "There are many such words but none conveys the same sense of urgency."

[Musivarius]

I wouldn't want my new villa full on sweaty, "geeky" mosaicists!!

Be better than a bunch of people smelling of horse

[66kbm]

OOOHHH......Lawrence....fighting talk.
I stand back and wait for the fireworks to arrive...
I can understand why because of the "geeky mosaisists", summit like that..
Kevin

[PhilusEstilius]

I think that very much like even today any planned work such as this would be given a time scale for job completion as business is business in any period.
However having said that time in general with the ancients was where their lives would be governed by up at sunrise and to bed just after sunset, life indeed would have been more of a natural thing very much like if you want to hunt for deer you have to get up early. Then no clock to chase after such as modern man with all his stress and other self created problems what a wonderful way to like.

[Vindex]

I wouldn't want my new villa full on sweaty, "geeky" mosaicists!!

Be better than a bunch of people smelling of horse

Touche...but if you finished my bath house on time rather than loafing about you wouldn't smell us <angelic look>

Seriously, I have read somewhere that the hours lengthened or shortened depending on the seasons but that was just for practicality sake one assumes.

[Titus Marius Secundus]

People also have to understand that they didn't have computers back then to distract us when at work, so efficiency levels were very high, so work was typically done and completed faster anyway.

People were obviously good at what they did, and dedicated their skills to that one thing. People would then have the mentality of " if it takes a year to do this job, it's a year, as long as I get paid".

Much like today, but like I said, without the distractions. Unless brothels qualify :lol:

[66kbm]

I drive a truck......no computer. Distraction is against the law be it computer or phone.
I use this as 1 example that people have to work, trackers in trucks, making us efficient.......... :lol:
Brothels ? Who are they?

Kevin

[Diocle]

Actually the construction times of the Romans were very fast, they were so fast that they are still astonishing today, if you think about public works as the Hadrian wall, the Pantheon and the Villa Adriana at Tivoli (it's a landsacpe scale!) or the most know of all: the Amphitheatre Flavius ... well their construction times, are still absolutely impressive also with the modern tecniques and material .... at least this from the persfective ofan architect and under the perspective of the science of the constructions ... if you think that they didn't make precise calcualtions of the structures .... the Ancient Roman building speed is absolutely astonishing ...

[Musivarius]

Thanks everyone. I can see the difference in that you had to work in the available daylight so that might, in some obscure way, be taken as a more relaxed way of working but as Diocle points out there are so many examples of them being very efficient in their building.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Well no, Efficiency wouldn't have been higher - prior to the development of scientific management in the late 19th century, Efficiency amongst workers was variable and low, because everyone did things their own way. Nobody experimented with different ways to load iron ingots into a minecart, and determine which method gave the most output so they could have all their workers do it that way.

There was pretty much no Ergonomics either.

[Musivarius]

Wouldn't this have just meant that you would have had numerous ways of working, some quicker than others? I think the statement 'they had a different perception of time' is used in the context of, 'they took their time to finish anything'.
Do you know what evidence is out there for the time taken to say build a villa so comparisons can be made?

[Kegluneq]

Well no, Efficiency wouldn't have been higher - prior to the development of scientific management in the late 19th century, Efficiency amongst workers was variable and low, because everyone did things their own way. Nobody experimented with different ways to load iron ingots into a minecart, and determine which method gave the most output so they could have all their workers do it that way.

This is kind of an interesting point, as new inventions do feature in telling anecdotes about the Roman world, especially the Emperors.

Petronius, Satyricon 51:

But you must allow me to say this, I prefer glass ones myself; they are quite free from smell at any rate. And if they didn't break, I would rather have them than gold itself; but they've got cheap and common now. However there was an artificer once who made a glass goblet that would not break. So he was admitted to Caesar's presence to offer him his invention; then, on receiving the cup back from Caesar's hands, he dashed it down on the floor. Who so startled as Caesar? but the man quietly picked up the goblet again, which was dinted as a vessel of bronze might be. Then taking a little hammer from his pocket, he easily and neatly knocked the goblet into shape again. This done, the fellow thought he was as good as in heaven already, especially when Caesar said to him, 'Does anybody else besides yourself understand the manufacture of this glass?' But lo! on his replying in the negative, Caesar ordered him to be beheaded, because if once the secret became known, we should think no more of gold than of so much dirt.

Trimalchio is hardly a reliable source, of course. But Vespasian too is seen to have resisted the tide of progress, albeit slightly more kindly:

Suetonius, Life of Vespasian 18:

To a mechanical engineer, who promised to transport some heavy columns to the Capitol at small expense, he gave no mean reward for his invention, but refused to make use of it, saying: "You must let me feed my poor commons."

Compared to industrial innovations that took place after the Renaissance, the Romans themselves seem to have been extremely wary about doing anything to change the status quo. I think this would be mainly to do with Rome's economy being based almost entirely around low-skilled, low status labour. Even the mercantile class and wealthy freedman industrialists were regarded with disdain by the Roman elite (contrast that with the Victorian period, for instance). Inventions that had the potential to drastically affect the workforce were to be feared rather than welcomed. With that in mind, there was very little impetus for change.

It's also debatable whether the efficiency models of the 19th century were actually a good thing for workers compared to managerial staff. Whilst they certainly enabled the mass production of technological innovations, they also removed individual agency from the crafting process. A concern among modern Chinese engineers that I've heard is that the drive for mass production efficiency there is also stifling their creativity as a culture; they are worried that too few new inventions are produced there, as the emphasis is on fitting in rather than standing out (this is anecdotal so feel free to correct me on that if necessary).

With regards to villa construction, the only real source I can think of immediately is Cicero, who took great pride in his. I don't know if he found cause for complaint about building times, however.

[Vindex]

Nobody experimented with different ways to load iron ingots into a minecart, and determine which method gave the most output so they could have all their workers do it that way.

There was pretty much no Ergonomics either.

How do you know that Evan?

It may be just as possible that due to more manpower they did not have to be "more efficient" - just throw more people at it which, in a way is a manner of effficiency depending upon one's interpretation of the word.