Ugh<br>
<br>
Ok, to clarify -<br>
<br>
The experiment had the belt OFF my body, wrapped around I think a chair back, don't exactly remember. I took a Rudis (a beaut from Purpleheart Armouries) And started whacking at it. I tried an upwards blow, and the straps split apart, or the end would rest on the blade edge and just fold up.<br>
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I also tried cutting side to side, and the aprons didn't look like it'd really stop anything. I tried thrusting...straps didn't stop anything.<br>
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I then tried with the belt on, but only dragging across [gently] - the straps just moved out of the way. I tried coming up...As if anyone would be able to reach at such an angle, one would be bent over, and it's really easy to attack someone bending over infront of you...<br>
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Nothing seemed to slow down or absorb the force of any kind of blow, and I was not about to try such a thing on myself!<br>
thankyouverymuch!<br>
<br>
It didn't matter what I did on myself or not...It's just not made for protection...Besides, this was a point I forgot to mention before - You have a big, honking SHIELD in the way, blocking roughly 75% of your body (nearly 90% with a Republican Scutum) and it's really difficult to get around a curved Imperial shield to even threaten one's belt area. You'd also be holding the shield out far enough that one would have to somehow step around the shield, and step between the shield and the Roman to get close enough....But to do that against a Roman frontline with what, 60 guys shoulder to shoulder? You need some better tactics than to purposely aim for below the belt.<br>
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Sorry I just don't see any protective abilities to the belt apron straps. It dangles and jingles and makes a racket. That's what it's made for. Romans apparently LOVE dangly-jingly thingies...heck, the sheath to my Dolabra from Albion even has dangly/jingly bits on it!<br>
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ANDY <p></p><i></i>
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In Mike Bishop's article on aprons he classifies three types of apron: attached to the back of the belt in some unknown way and passed over the front; attached to the back of the belt in some unknown way and hanging below the belt; and formed from the divided end of the spare material of the belt end. He notes that a number of sculptures show the apron straps hanging from a rectangular plate equal in length to the width of the apron which is fixed in some way below the belt. It is also worth noting that the apron always seems to end above the hem of the tunic (therefore no fear of chafed thighs). He also noted that a certain amount of formalising had gone on in the depiction of aprons, so that they were always depicted as hanging evenly at the bottom despite often being staggered at the top in accordance with the angle of the belts they hung from.<br>
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I think the article was published in 1989. Have a look too, at Francis Grew and Nick Griffiths' 1991 article on the pre-Flavian military belt in (I think) the Antiquaries Journal.<br>
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I think, also, that with the single strap found at Mainz being the sole piece of tangible evidence for the form of the apron, it is pointless and misleading to make arbitary statements about how the leather components of the apron may or may not have been cut.<br>
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Crispvs <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://b30.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crispvs>Crispvs</A> at: 4/28/04 2:38 am<br></i>
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Just to clarify,<br>
<br>
I hopefully didn't say the apron had any protective value. I had wanted to ensure that it was only the ptergyes that would give a measure of protection against slashes, not Roman belt apron straps. <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
I do think there is one practicle use for the cingulum.<br>
<br>
If you look at how a women sits down, and how an "All Bundy" kind of guy sits in his chair you will see a distinct difference. The legs are crossed for the first, legs wide open for the last one.<br>
<br>
If you add to that, the fact that not all romans were wearing underpants (like the scotts) ... you would be able to see some things that do not need to be seen.<br>
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If the apron is heavy enough it will force the tunic down, covering most of the mens jewels. There is no protective value to it, it comes from the greeks or the spliting of belts and yes is decorative... but also practicle in the neigbourhood of girls. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gauishoratiuspetrus>Gauis Horatius Petrus</A> at: 4/30/04 3:52 pm<br></i>
<br>
Does that explain why some men need longer straps than others?<br>
<br>
Contexa<br>
<p>LEGIO IX HISPANA<br>
Fidelitas - Virtus - Magnanimitas</p><i></i>
I didn't think Romans were that shy ??? <p></p><i></i>
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I tend to feel that its main practical function is to make a rhythmic noise as one marches, and is thus a useful aid to keeping in step with one's comilites.<br>
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Crispvs <p></p><i></i>
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Don't forget the part about intimidating the enemy. <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
i'd go along with the fashion accessory argument.<br>
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i have used double belts for years and they do not need to be joined in anyway.<br>
<br>
when doing some work , I found it much easier to tuck the apron up and out of the way.[I have lost pendants because they got got in my boot laces!- no Im not really short/nor have really long aprons- it just when I have been kneeling and have to stand up again ]<br>
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IRC on the Adamklissi figures they wear belt without aprons- but they are in combat, wheras many tombstones the soldier has an apron and is in his best outfit [?]. <p><img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.martin/forum/mark.gif
" width="100" height="100" align="right">
</p><i></i>
dingaling, dingalong, cling clang clong, ching ching....<br>
<br>
multiply that sound about appr. 5300 times and you have the sound that must have scared the barbarian hordes...<br>
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as well as the sound of a lot of segmentata plates of course, and marchng feet.............<br>
<br>
regds...<br>
M.VIB.M. <p>V COH II<br>
LEGIO X GEMINA<br>
EX GER INF</p><i></i>
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I also wear double belts and they don't need to be joined. They sit quite happily on chain mail even if a little loose without slipping partly because of the rivits that hole the plates on and partly because of the flexibility of chain mail. In my old group it was normal practice to have the aprons fold over the top of the belt as it meant you needed fewer of the expensive belt plates.<br>
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My experiments seem to indicate that the apron will provide some protection to the private parts. A thrust will go straight through them but with a horizontal (ish) slash they wrap around the sword absorbing some energy and might stop the edge actually cutting things off. I think someone once told me that in some ancient religions you wouldn't go to "heaven" if you had lost your private parts. I am not trying to suggest that the aprons make great armour just that you shouldn't just discount them. <p></p><i></i>
Bernard Jacobs
Any opinion stated is genally not the opinion of My group or Centurian
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protection?<br>
<br>
In the full speed full sontact simulated combat we've done the danglium offer no protection. Thrusts <em>and</em> slashes seem to make their way to 'target" with little or no impedence.<br>
<br>
<br>
Hibernicus<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Hibernicus
LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA
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Random thought (aided by a slightly dirty mind) :<br>
<br>
If you're a man wearing a short tunic, as soldiers did, doesn't having something hanging over the tunic in front help keep the tunic from flipping up in the wind, or when you're squatting, or whatever? Protection, maybe, for male modesty? (I imagine undergarments could be an optional item. Certainly our boys today go without them in the field.)<br>
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Really, though, I'd hazard they remained popular because, like the distinction of short tunics, they immediately identified the man to the world as a soldier.<br>
<br>
Jenny <p></p><i></i>
Cheers,
Jenny
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Vardulli,<br>
<br>
When did the apron go out of in use in your opinion?<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Why do we keep looking for 'one' solution, maybe it is all the above that gave the cingulum it's long live <p></p><i></i>
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