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Flavius Promotus · 01-24-2004, 08:21 AM

Just to add my grain of salt... 
 
I'd really wish to see Lorica Segmentata here, but the 'folds' in the picture are vertical, while the iron bends of segmentata usually run horizontally around the belly. (Please correct me if I'm totally wrong) And the 'shoulder guards' in the relief rather look like the sleeves of tunicae. 
 
As to dating this relief: The name Marcus Aurelius does not necessarily mean that Diodorus was granted citizenship under Marcus, since quite a number of Roman emperors after Marcus also had this name. 
In my opinion, the relief should be dated (according to the name of Marcus Aurelius Diodorus) into probably the first half of the 3rd century - because of Caracalla. 
 
Caracalla (official name Marcus Aurelius Severus Antoninus Pius Augustus) granted Roman citizenship to all freemen within the empire in 212/3 AD (so called 'Constitutio Antoniniana'). Since new made citizens took over the name of their patronus, the 
Roman empire was suddenly SWARMING with Marci Aurelii ! 
The effect can even be seen in a number of emperors from the late 3rd century like M. Aurelius Carus, or M. Aurelius Probus, or M. Aurelius Claudius (Gothicus). 
 
Therefore, I would argue for some time after Caracalla. 
Now, a relief with lorica segmentata from this age would really be nice - but see above

FlaviusCrispus · 01-24-2004, 04:16 PM

I'd really wish to see Lorica Segmentata here, but the 'folds' in the picture are vertical, while the iron bends of segmentata usually run horizontally around the belly. (Please correct me if I'm totally wrong) And the 'shoulder guards' in the relief rather look like the sleeves of tunicae. 
 
I'm not sure which relief you are looking at, but on all four of the "armored" figures, I see verticle bands on the upper body, going over the shoulders, and horizontal bands across the abdomen and lower body, which is what you'd see with any lorica seg. You may be right about the 'shoulder guards' being sleeves, but there seem to be three distinct layers of "sleeve," which would seem a rather lot of extra detail (if we're talking about folds of cloth) to be represented on a relief otherwise so simplified. 
 
Alternatively, we could, as Graham suggests, be seeing an extremely long cloak folded into a narrow strip and wound once or twice over each shoulder and upper arm, around the waist a few times, then wound around the back and pinned at the left shoulder. In which case, does the diagonal strip also represent a fold, or is this a baldric? 
 
Interestingly enough, the figure Graham shows on page 46 of RMC 1, which he reconstructs as a Praetorian guardsman wearing a lorica segmentata, with pteruges and a cloak, is wearing his cloak pinned over the left shoulder in a manner quite similar to our relief here. 
 
As to dating this relief: The name Marcus Aurelius does not necessarily mean that Diodorus was granted citizenship under Marcus, since quite a number of Roman emperors after Marcus also had this name. 
In my opinion, the relief should be dated (according to the name of Marcus Aurelius Diodorus) into probably the first half of the 3rd century - because of Caracalla. 
 
Quite right. Which is why I said the name meant the relief could be dated no earlier than the reign of Marcus Aurelius and (probably) later. 
 
Interestingly, another relief illustrated in the new Osprey book "Roman Legionary AD 161-284" shows a soldier in Caracalla's personal guard, with horizontal bands running across his abdomen as seen here. Cowan and McBride reconstruct this fellow as wearing a lorica seg. Should we also reconsider this relief as wearing a wrapped cloak instead? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA

aitor iriarte · 01-25-2004, 09:25 AM

Hi again, Graham Sumner has asked me to post this: 
 
Pteruges: Flavius Crispus wondered if police men would ride horses. The tombstone from Ephesus in my illustration belonged to a senior police official (Paraphylax) who was shown mounted on a horse. Unfortunately the illustration was edited and he was left out!

Flavius Promotus · 01-26-2004, 07:59 AM

Quite right. Which is why I said the name meant the relief could be dated no earlier than the reign of Marcus Aurelius and (probably) later. 
 
Ooops, I should read posts more thoroughly, sorry 
 
Interestingly, another relief illustrated in the new Osprey book "Roman Legionary AD 161-284" shows a soldier in Caracalla's personal guard, with horizontal bands running across his abdomen as seen here. Cowan and McBride reconstruct this fellow as wearing a lorica seg. Should we also reconsider this relief as wearing a wrapped cloak 
instead? 
 
Could it show some kind of sumbarmalis ? Graham has shown in Roman Military Clothing 2 (plate c, 2) a Praetorian Guardsman with the lorica off, so his subarmalis can be seen. He says the reconstruction is highly hypothetical and mainly based on medieval finds, but medieval and ancient ones probably did not differ too much. 
I don't know the English expression for a subarmalis, can I say 'padded tunic' ? 
 
The diagonal strip does indeed look like a baldric. 
 
Perhaps para military police forces in Asia Minor had only some kind of subarmalis (which might still have provided some protection in a brawl) and no 'real' lorica, but I don't want to hypothesize too much.

05-15-2004, 04:38 AM

Well, here's my first attempt at making pteruges: 
<img src="http://img67.photobucket.com/albums/v204/darius27/pteruges_4_views.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
I went with 7-8 oz cow, and backed them with 1-2 oz goatskin (suede-side out). Observations thus far: 
 
1) They make the subarmalis a few pounds heavier, which goes unnoticed after the first few minutes of wear. 
 
2) They really give you a much more protective feeling from your waist down! Whether or not they stop or impede anything remains to be seen, but after wearing them just a short time, I'd certainly rather have them in battle than not! 
 
3) Historical viability: they do not seem to appear anywhere (stele, reliefs, mosaics, etc.) with lorica segmentata in the 1st Cent. AD, but are clearly depicted on the Column of Marcus Aurelius (c. 180 AD) with this type of armor. My guess is that they begin to see use in the late Antoinine period, when so many other fashion changes to the uniform seem to take place. 
 
4) Historical viability II: while often depicted by contemporary, as well as ancient, artists as being made of white linen, I'm of the mindset that this is related to the Attic helmet debate. Though profusely evident in reliefs and monumental evidence, archaeological evidence maintains that attic helmets simply were not worn during the Imperial period at all. Rather, Dr Rankov's book on the Prae. Guard shows that the Praetorians' helmets were typically of the more effective legionary design then current. The same goes for footware: while caliga are often pictured past 100 AD, archaeology does not support this... the shoes were updated to the more effective calcae pattern. And while Greek-style white linen pteruges may have also been the artistic rage, they would undoubtably have been updated to something more effective as well. Hopefully I've come close to what was accurate. 
 
4) These things draped quite stiffly, until I coated them with mink oil and rolled them (crushed, actually) repeatedly to soften them up. Now, despite the heaviness of the individual straps, they fall in a manner that's quite comfortable. 
 
5) The strap ends should be approximately level with the hem of your tunic. Longer would annoy greatly on the march, while shorter defeats the purpose of having them. 
 
6) What I did not add: the fringes. More of an NCO/officer thing, I would think... nevertheless, my next attempt will have fringe added (to add them onto this set now would require me to remove each strap, raise it up 2", and stitch it back onto the subarmalis... a real PITA). 
 
7) The number of straps will depend on your waist size, and their length will depend on your height. Mine are 2.5" wide x 17" long. (I've got a 35" waist, and am 5'7"... all muscle, of course) The straps over the front and back can be sewn-on side by side, but around the hips, they need to be layered (with the back edge of the frontmost ones over the leading edges of the rearmost ones, if that makes sense) in order not to have goofy-looking pie-shaped gaps on the sides. I also sewed them up high to the outside of the subarmalis, so that if the armor rides up, you don't see the body of the subarmalis between the pteruges and the segmentata. 
 
Well, that's probably far more than anyone wants to know or cares about this particular piece of equipment, so I'll stop typing now! 
 
Vale, 
Darius 
 
<img src="http://img67.photobucket.com/albums/v204/darius27/victrix_tabulum_II.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

05-15-2004, 06:23 PM

Gaius, not Flavius (sorry), 
Historically supported or not, pteruges make sense for an armour that only protects you fron the waist up and yours absolutely ROCK.

John M McDermott · 05-20-2004, 03:18 PM

We are so conditioned by our modern concepts of fire combat and the samauri movie (where 100 lb models slice off heads and limbs with a flick of the wrist) that we ignore the subtle blow. 
 
I apologize for using this example, but the recent beheading of an American shows that grevious wounds can and will occur by simply by pinning the victim and pressing down with the blade. 
 
By the way, great ptyerges.

05-21-2004, 11:42 AM

So. to bring it down to basics again, 
 
How were they then made? is it a shirt made of leather with ptervges attached to it? were the ptervges attached to the armour? 
 
was it a linen subarmalis with ptervges attached to it? or a real linothorax worn under the muscvlata, or even the segmentata? 
 
Leather or Linen, or even maybe simple cloth, why not canvas?? what is the strongest..? 
 
a lot of answers needed me thinks....... (of course the idea of metal Ptervges might be ludicrous so i wont even go there) 
 
but please do say what you think, since i want to try and make a good reconstruction for (under) my mvsculata..... 
 
regds.... 
 
M.VIB.M.

05-21-2004, 12:24 PM

I dunno if leather is a far off guess for pteryge material. A lack of finding leather strips is not necessarily evidence against it. Lack of linen pteryges in the archaeological record because they would rot away is like saying Roman tents were in fact made of linen...but they all rotted away. 
 
Anyway Marcus, to answer your question. I simply cut leather strips, and sewed them to the bottom of my wool subarmalis. Take a length and width that suits your fancy, and space them out appropriately and that's basically it! Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

05-21-2004, 04:33 PM

Ave, 
 
Here is a link to a picture of a sub (from LEG V PRAETORIA) w. pteruges that's worn under a Lorica Squamata, but it very nicely executed and would surely work under a muscle cuirass: 
 
www.romanhideout.com/Legi...1_1024.jpg 
 
This is in the Legion V Cohors III Praetoria - here's the starting page: 
 
www.romanhideout.com/Legiov/default.asp 
 
Somewhere in their many pictures there's another where he is standing, but I could not find it. Lots of really nice stuff in this legion though, check it out. 
 
Vale, Quintus Florentius

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