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01-16-2004, 03:15 PM

I agree with Aitor...with respect to the pterygae on officers. But lower ranks...I am not so sure. Mine were a single row of leather, as depicted in Connolly's "The Legionary". I can't see lower ranks using ones made out of fabric. And, for reference, i've posted those pics here: 
 
<img src="http://img13.photobucket.com/albums/v39/TlantMagnus/Pteryges.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
And a side view...you can just make out the shoulder ones sticking out from teh shoulder guards. 
 
<img src="http://img13.photobucket.com/albums/v39/TlantMagnus/Sideshotpteryges.jpg" style="border:0;"/> Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I 
 
"Lay your hand, or thy tongue against the greatness of Rome, and feel my wrath." - Matt Lanteigne 
 
- Number of posts: current +1248

aitor iriarte · 01-16-2004, 03:46 PM

Nice pics, Tib! 
I cannot say that such or such thing was such way in Roman times, of course! 
Notwithstanding, if you look at the left legionary on the Croy Hill relief, already mentioned by Graham, you will see that he is apparently wearing a skirt of three rows of pterugae (in any case a far better interpretation for the crude carving than the quilted subarmalis depicted on last Ross Cowan's Osprey book! ) 
 
Aitor

01-16-2004, 05:27 PM

Hey, those things aren't cheap ya know! 
Though I can see a triple row of leather offering great protection...especially if they were staggered. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I 
 
"Lay your hand, or thy tongue against the greatness of Rome, and feel my wrath." - Matt Lanteigne 
 
- Number of posts: current +1248

Crispvs · 01-16-2004, 10:18 PM

Valarianus, 
 
"from the Antonine period on" 
 
So what about the stelae of Gaius Castricius Victor and Valerius Crispus and the depiction of pteruges on a garment (possibly a thoromachus) on the arch of Orange? 
 
"limited to duplicarii" 
 
Were either Valerius Crispus or Castricius Victor duplicarii? I don't remember reading so anywhere. 
 
"officers are always depicted wearing .... hamata" 
 
Minucius (Padova) - belted tunic and cloak. 
M. Favonius Facilis (Colchester) short hamata with long Greek style shoulder doublings.

Crispvs · 01-16-2004, 10:40 PM

To continue, 
 
Q. Sertorius Festus (Verona) - unbelted squamata and phalerae. 
M' Caelius (Bonn) - belted hamata and phalerae. 
T. Calidius Severus (Aquincum?) - Squamata(?) with short fringed sleeves and a fringed lower edge. 
 
"even optio feathers" 
 
Could you cite your evidence that feathers were the preserve of optiones? Surely the optio's badge of rank was his knobbed staff. Quite a number of helmets survive with feather tubes still attached and to the best of my knowledge none of them can be definitely connected to any particular rank. Feather tubes are common on 5th to 3rd century BC Italian helmets and probably decorated many celtic helmets as well. Perhaps they continued to be manufactured as a traditional decoration in some workshops. 
 
Your point about crests on Trajan's column is an interesting one. I have often wondered about this myself. It is also interesting to note that there is only one depiction of an officer on the column (aside from the group who always accompany the emperor) and he does not wear his helmet (and may not be a centurio). Perhaps the intention was to depict particular units, rather than individuals within units. I agree with your suggestion that the crista traversa would have been worn in battle. I have always held that the reason it runs from side to side is that the 'rainbow' shape would be easier to see for the soldiers following, while the front to back type would be much narrower from behind and thus less obvious. 
 
Regards 
 
Crispvs

John M McDermott · 01-22-2004, 06:28 PM

Sorry I have taken so long to reply to Tiberisu Iantanius Magnus' comments. 
 
I meant to say that one should proceed no further if one was convinced pteryges were ornamental, because one could then wear them with anything, not the other way around. 
 
I believe a high kinetic energy blow, as delivered by a heavy sword or ax would have shattered a segmentata as well as a hamata. The plates need not shatter themselves to achieve this, because a segmentata was held together by rivets and thin hinges. I have heard reports of segmentatas flying apart in mock combat. 
 
I agree that in Roman infantry battle, such a shot is difficult. I would further point out that Roman training specifically aimed at defeating such a shot, emphasizing thrusts. 
 
I define a cut as a low kinetic energy blow that is much similar to the blow you deliver to an orange or apple when cutting it with a knife. You press the blade against the apple or orange and apply pressure. Such a blow would have been practical in combat where tens of thousands of men were pushing and shoving in exclusively muscle powered fighting. Pteryges would have afforded the wearer a measure of protection to such cuts on the upper arms and would have been valuable. 
 
It would seem leather or hide would be preferred to protect against such cutting.

FlaviusCrispus · 01-22-2004, 07:15 PM

Avete, comililitones! 
 
I should probably clarify and expand upon a few of the statements made by my colleague Darius above regarding my studies on the use of pteruges (or pteryges) with the lorica segmentata (my report will soon be posted soon on the Legio VI website, to which I will post a link). 
 
"Legio VI's resident archaeological expert, Flavius Crispus, did a brief report on their use, and concluded that (a) they appear, albeit sparingly, from the Antoinine Period on, (b) they were for defensive reasons, and/or © their use was most likely limited to duplicarii (those of double pay grade, i.e., those holding a rank or position above that of average legionary)." 
 
This is a rather jumbled version of my report. Here's a more complete summary: 
 
* Pteruges originated with the Greeks in the late 6th C. BC, as an integral part of the linothorax, to provide some flexible defensive coverage of the lower torso-groin area. They were later adapted in somewhat altered form for use with the muscle cuirass and other forms of armor by means of attachment to a thoromachus (or subarmalis), in which the coverage extended to the upper thighs. 
 
* Presumably, they were made of layered linen, leather or hyde. The few contemporary color depictions we have from the times seem to show them as white, which may favor linen. 
 
*The Romans adopted pteruges along with the rest of the Greek panoply, adapting them (at least initially) for wear with the muscle cuirass, male or scale armor. 
 
*In a Roman context, they are most often seen in reliefs on officers, including legates, tribunes, centurions, and various forms of standard-bearer (e.g. the Domitius Ahenobarbus altar, Arch of Orange, Prima Porta statue of Augustus, grave stele of Facilis, etc.). In the few cases where soldiers not identified as officers are shown wearing them (e.g. the stele of Caius Castricius Victor, accessible via this link: 
 
victor 
 
...the soldier is one with a long term of service (14 years in Victor's case, in which case if he was not yet a duplicarius, he was some kind of slacker!) and has other attributes which may indicate a status above that of a regular line legionary (in Victor's case, side plumes on the helmet and a particularly ornate shield). 
 
*Soldiers (probably Praetorians) on the Antonine column base, ca. AD 141, are shown wearing lorica segmentatae with a "scalloped fringe" (but no true pteruges) along the lower edge. 
 
*The Trajanic Adamclisi metopes show legionaries wearing scale and mail armor with single and double rows of pteruges (plus manicae), but it is unclear whether we are looking at regular rankers or higher-grade legionaries (a class of "super heavy infantry" raised for this particular campaign?) in specially augmented equipment. Some of the signifers are also shown with pteruges. Curiously, despite the ubiquity of the lorica segmentata on Trajan's column, this form of armor is not shown at all in Adamclisi. In any event, it indicates that any "rules" or "taboos" that exited limiting pteruges to higher ranks may have become blurred or simply discarded during the exigencies of continuous combat. 
 
*Prior to the later Antonine period (ca. AD 160 and later), soldiers are not seen on any metropolitan or provincial relief wearing the combination of lorica segmentata and pteruges. This seems on the surface to be odd, since the addition of pteruges at least partially corrects the only major deficiency in the lorica seg, namely the lack of protection for the lower torso and upper thighs. 
 
*Soldiers are not seen wearing the combination of lorica seg and pteruges on the Column of Marcus Aurelius either; however, an Antonine monument later cannibalized for the Arch of Constantine does show this combination on at least three figures. Also, a small bronze figurine of a Roman soldier showing this combination is likely Antonine or later. 
 
Since I did the report, I found yet another Antonine or later monument showing this combination, namely this one: 
 
Marcus Aurelius 
 
This funerary relief, which even M.C. Bishop seems to have missed, seems highly significant to me for a number of reasons. (a) It is an extremely rare provincial relief showing soldiers wearing the lorica segmentata, and provincial art is often held to be more reliable than metropolitan propaganda monuments such as Trajan's Column, (b) while stylized, it does show apparently accurate bits of detail, including a wider baldric, helmets slung on the shoulder and some kind of lower-leg wrapping, © it is an Eastern monument, being from Hierapolis in Asia Minor, whereas lorica segmentata is often described as predominantly a western form of armor , (d) the name of the soldier, Marcus Aurelius Diodorus, seems to securely date it to the reign of Marcus Aurelius or (probably?) later, as either he or an anticedent apparently got their citizenship under Aurelius, (e) one segmentata-clad soldier is shown holding a horse, possibly indicating that at least some cavalry wore this form of armor, and (e) the afformentioned depiction of pteruges with a lorica seg. 
 
I can't blow the central image up enough to get a good look at the actual text on the central plaque. Can anyone get a better look and maybe decipher it? Who is this guy? Is he a legionary, auxilliary, ranker or officer? It seems a particularly elaborate tomb relief, so I'd guess he was some kind of officer. 
 
*The post-Antonine combination of lorica seg and pteruges is not universal, as pteruges are not seen on the Arch of Severus or the Alba Iulia monument. 
 
In conclusion... 
 
*As mentioned before, it is more difficult to logically explain the lack of pteruges on depictions of soldiers before the Antonine era than their presence from ca. AD 160 on. The only explanation I can come up with is that during this period, pteruges were somehow identified as the province of officers, standard bearers and the like, whereas the loirica seg was worn mainly by line infantry. 
 
*The stress of near-continuous warfare from AD 162 on may have loosened and blurred the lines of the former strictures of military fashion, resulting in the increasing use of pteruges by line infantry, and/or the use of the lorica segmentata by officers. 
 
As I mentioned, I'll have more later. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI VIctrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/22/04 8:20 pm

Daniel S Peterson · 01-22-2004, 07:39 PM

I would agree with Aitor that many pteruges were linen. They may have all been. The original pteruges were unquestionably linen and were merely the bottom of the Hellensitic linen cuirass cut into strips, usuall with a second layer attached behind. The very fine pteruges on some emperor muscle cuirass statues are sometimes given a scupted 'woven' texture. It is highly probable that the 'fringe' on some of these pteruges at least were made from the frayed out ends of the pteruges, and curled in a decorative fashion. 
 
Another possibility is that many of the unfringed pteruges are felt, and are serrated bottoms of a felt subarmalis. While you may speculate on other material, contemporary late Roman texts specifically state the the subarmalis worn under mal was made of felt. To make the felt water proof it would be ocered with oiled goatskin. 
 
Although we naturally imagine leather as the right material for pteruges, none have ever been found to by knowledge, despite hundreds of discarded caliga and thousands of misc. military leather fragrment discarded at Mainz and other sites. 
 
One very interesting pteruges subject are the curious ones on no less than three seperate mainz tombstones which appear to go all around each leg, just as they normally do around arms. As protection, this is far more effective than hanging loose around the bottom edge of the hamata. There is a very early, famous full sculpted reconstruction at Mainz probably ordered by Lindenschmidt of a legionary so armored. This is often scoffed at by modern buffs, but it cannot be disproven, and it is more functional. 
 
Dan

FlaviusCrispus · 01-22-2004, 11:31 PM

I just noticed the photo credit on the Marcus Aurelius Diodorus relief is to our own Jasper Oorthuys. Jasper, can you tell us anything more about this fascinating sculpture? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA

Crispvs · 01-23-2004, 02:14 AM

Thanks for the image. I had never seen it before either. 
 
I thought I might contribute a few points. 
 
1 - how can we be sure that we are seeing pteriges rather than a rather stylised treatment of the folds naturally to be found in gathered tunics? 
 
2 - the things hanging over the soldiers' shoulders could be helmets, but they do not look much like the large helmets we generally believe to be contemporary with the wide baldrics. I would suggest that they look more like cloaks which are fastened on the shoulder and may be seen passing over the arm again just below. 
 
3 - perhaps I am being optimistic, but could we be looking at simplified depictions of 'Alba Juia' cuirasses here? 
 
Crispvs

FlaviusCrispus · 01-23-2004, 05:24 AM

1 - how can we be sure that we are seeing pteriges rather than a rather stylised treatment of the folds naturally to be found in gathered tunics? 
 
Thanks for your astute observations, frater Crispi. Now that I can get a closer look at each figure (for some reason, the blow-up feature doesn't seem to work on a Mac, which I use at work), it isn't as clear-cut as I originally thought that these are in fact pteruges. But if these are "folds", they are awfully regular and linear. My guess is that the artist intends pteruges, but that's only an opinion. 
 
2 - the things hanging over the soldiers' shoulders could be helmets, but they do not look much like the large helmets we generally believe to be contemporary with the wide baldrics. I would suggest that they look more like cloaks which are fastened on the shoulder and may be seen passing over the arm again just below. 
 
Now that I see the figures better, I quite agree-- they're probably cloaks. I also notice one figure holds what appears to be a knobbed staff of some kind, indicating he might be an optio or centurion; the guy next to him holds some kind if indistinct wreath-like object; the one on the far right holds a bunch of grapes in one hand and cradles some kind of large object in his left arm. All soldiers have baldrics running from the right shoulder to the left hip, so they are wearing swords on the left. The spears are regular hastae, not pila. Also, there appear to be dogs sitting at the feet of two figures. Also note the togate figure to the far left. 
 
Are these supposed to be several depictions of the same soldier in different stages of life, or perhaps different soldiers, from the same family (the inscription seems to repeat the name "Diodorus" several times, perhaps referring to the soldier's ancestors or relatives?). 
 
3 - perhaps I am being optimistic, but could we be looking at simplified depictions of 'Alba Juia' cuirasses here? 
 
Well, not if you follow Bishop's model for the cuirass, with a scale upper section. I clearly see big shoulder plates and lesser shoulder gards on the upper arms. Of course, Bishop might be wholly or partially wrong about the Alba Iulia, and it may in fact employ shoulder guards along with partial-scale chest and back plates. Or something. Who knows? Anyway, we've got plenty of fodder for speculation here. 
 
I'm working on trying to transcribe the Greek inscription on the central panel. What fun! 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA

FlaviusCrispus · 01-23-2004, 05:55 AM

Huh? 
 
I posted a partial transciption of the text in symbol font, and my post was removed and replaced with a warning that "HTML comments are not allowed." Weird. 
 
Anyway, I was asking if anyone knew the Greek term for "Centurion." I seem to see a couple of terms in the text which may be candidates. 
 
It would make sense if M. Aurelius Diodorus was a centurion. At least one of the depictions shows him holding a vine staff; another shows him holding a horse (which centurions did possess). The grapes and large object (perhaps a large distaff?-- coins of Tarentum show Taras holding a similar combination of objects) are probably religious symbols for a dionysic cult. 
 
Which, if true, means we have a first-ever depiction of a centurion wearing a lorica segmentata! It gets more interesting all the time... 
 
T. Flavius Crispus Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/23/04 4:07 pm

aitor iriarte · 01-23-2004, 06:26 PM

Hi, Graham Sumner has asked me to post this: 
 
Pteruges. 
I tend to agree with Crispus on this one. My initial reaction when I first saw this tombstone was that the figures looked just like the para military police officials that I had illustrated and reconstructed in Roman Military Clothing 1 (see also the thread on Roman Guards). 
 
All the figures seem to be wearing draped tunics rather than lorica segmentata, especially the 'cavalryman'. In his case if he is wearing a lorica it would seem that it is without the upper half. 
 
Furthermore it appears to me that all the men are wearing a cloak like a paludamentum worn over their left shoulder. What I at first thought was a wide waistband rather than a lorica segmentata is in all probability the cloak itself wrapped around the body. On the relief from Ephesus illustrated in my book you can see the same practice. Further evidence to support this is given by the Roman artist himself who does not show the lower half of any of the cloaks. 
 
Finally it could be argued that some of the men are also carrying wooden clubs or staffs so in my opinion the relief is another example of para military police in Asia Minor. 
 
Nevertheless many thanks for highlighting this very interesting and important piece of evidence. 
 
With regards to Pteruges themselves I agree with Flavius Crispus that the majority must have been made from layers of linen. As I said previously all the coloured depictions in either Greek or Roman art show them as white. 
 
Finally it could be argued that some of the men are carrying wooden clubs or staffs (or is that a torch and a dog on a lead!) So in my opinion the sculpture is further evidence for the Para-military police in Asia Minor. 
 
Now all I need is for someone to provide a translation of the Greek inscription to tell me I am completely wrong! However I look forward to hearing Mike Bishops comments on this. 
 
Graham

FlaviusCrispus · 01-23-2004, 07:41 PM

Wrapped cloaks? 
 
Unlikely, in my opinion. I see three or four bands running crosswise around the body, as in the Alba Iulia relief (which no one, to my knowledge, has identified as a showing a guy with a cloak wrapped around his abdomen!), two large bands over the shoulders where you'd expect the major shoulder guards to be, and in at least one case two sets of subsidiary bands on the upper arm where you'd expect the lesser shoulder guards to be. The objects on the upper left shoulder probably do represent a paludmentum, but I don't see much relevence to not seeing the rest of the cloak billowing out behind him; in fact, the "object" held in the left hand of the second figure may be a corner of his cloak. I'm not sure what is meant by the figure with the horse having "no upper section" to his lorica-- the shoulder guards are quite clearly shown, and if we follow the artistic convention used on the girth hoops, which omits showing the central division or fastenings (as does the base of the Antonine column), the chest section is simply represented by a single breastplate. In fact, his "armor" looks rather like the simplified, stylized loricae seen in the movie Ben Hur! 
 
As I said before, I think the various figures depict the same soldier in different roles-- citizen, magistrate(?), soldier, centurion (with staff and with horse), and religious acolyte. The "club" looks like a vine staff or optio's wand to me, and, as I mentioned, the objects held by the figure on the right are clearly religious. 
 
I'm working on getting the plaque translated. Will post results. Of course, if it identifies Diodorus as a police official or magistrate, that would indicate Graham might be right about a "wrapped cloak" instead of armor. But would police or paramilitaries carry spears and ride horses? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/24/04 12:04 am

FlaviusCrispus · 01-24-2004, 05:29 AM

OK, having examined the relevant pages of Graham's "Roman Military Clothing (1)," (plate G3 and page 47), I see what he's talking about with the wrapped-cloak look. He could very well be right that this guy is a diogmitoi (eastern paramilitary policeman). Still, a couple details of the relief look very lorica segmentata-ish, particularly this little detail: 
 
<img src="http://www.legionsix.org/diodorusdetail.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
You can definitely see what look like primary and secondary shoulder guards running down the arm. 
 
It also looks like at least a couple of different soldiers are represented here, as the horse trooper is named as "Julianus." 
 
Still hoping to get the text translated over the weekend. Stay tuned. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/24/04 6:31 am

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