reason for ridges in sword grip

[richsc]

I'm sure I would never have made the comparison, but has anyone pondered why the gladius grip has such deep grooves? Medieval swords have smooth grips but they are for hacking. Not sure if we have ever mentioned this before or not, but in a recent event I took my Depeeka blade out and started stabbing at a wood pile (not my nicer blade, mind you) , presuming this to be the Roman way to practice on the wooden post. Now, this Depeeka has almost a smooth hilt, and I found quickly that my hand slid and rammed against the guard and would have tired quickly, not to mention getting bruised, if I'd kept it up. With practice you would get callouses, but it would seem to me that the deeply grooved grip helps spread the load from the punch.<br>
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<p>Legio XX<br>
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo<br>
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</p><i></i>

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

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Right Rich, you are saying what none of us dares to say: the gladius hilt is not so comfortable to use (it's one of the misteries of the military equipment)...<br>
Of course, I've the same problem and getting more callouses is not the solution in my opinion, I think they used at least some leather on the hilt and the groove worked to keep better the leather straps fit on it. Since the basic hand anatomy is the same of ancient romans and looking at the original shields hilts size, or the caligae size, the average soldiers had feet and hand smaller, I really don't know how those little (even if callouses and trained) hands could held and balance many hours fights, without suffering of a lot of micro-fractures! BUT, the real gladius blades were smaller than the present replicas, for example, I was surprised of the very small size of the original Pompeii gladius blade brought by Dan Peterson at the Vittoriano exhibition in Roma, it's almost a kitchen knife!<br>
Then the deep grooves don't seem to help the grip so much, due to the very small section of the hilt.<br>
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The 60-70s heavy wooden tennis-rackets had the most of the weight in the head, so needed of a large section hilt to control them in heavy duty (first server, for example), while the nowadays fiberglass/kevlar rackets are better balanced and lighter so require a smaller section hilt. How a small hilt and heavy headed too like the gladius (especially the Mainz/Fulham replicas) can be easy and comfortable to fight with? It's a nonsense that has to be studied more: why having a so useful big pommel, when you have to manage that unconfortable and troublesome "lacking of material" in the hilt grip? Why a roman soldier had to risk hand fractures at any hit?<br>
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Vale,<br>
Titus<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

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The twisted hilt grip kind is more confortable; I've tried both and I prefer the twisted one...<br>
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Vale,<br>
Titus <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I think Matt Amt stated (correct me if I'm wrong!) that the grips on modern reconstructions of swords are too long. Maybe if the bone grip was shorter and your hand already braced against the wood guard, there wouldn't be any slipping, and your hand would not slam against it? <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

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Short is better but does not fix the problem: even if the grip is shorter, your hand will slip and ram against the guard anyway, when you stab. The classic gladius grip design is wrong just because you don't need that deep grooves there. Even a smooth bone cylinder, if "fat", would assure a better grip, just for the presence of both: the guard and that big pommel, the real keys of the use of the gladius. Because if the correct gladius handling is the result of a good levering up of the hand between the guard and the pommel (to reduce the perspiration effects too), a too thin grip makes vain it. How do you feel your wrist after a long (hours) gladius exercise? I think you could have less problems if the grip was "fat".<br>
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[richsc]

This is a great question. Yes, after punching the log for a minute I thought my top of my fist would start bruising. A tennis type grip is for swinging and twisting rather than punching, so you don't slide on the grip the same way. If you have a smaller grip I don't think the pommel does anything for you, but that's a good point to try out.<br>
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You can see where the needlefelt type sword would be useless for this type of testing. This would take using up, and maybe breaking, an iron sword. I can see keeping the threaded top on it so you can switch grips quickly. <p>Legio XX<br>
Caupona Asellinae</p><i></i>

[John Maddox Roberts]

I find myself wondering whether the Romans thrust against the stake with full power. It isn't a very realistic simulation of stabbing an enemy. A shield held by the enemy would have far more give to it, and for simulating a stab to the body, something like a hay bale would be a more realistic medium. Human flesh offers almost no resistance to sharp steel and bone is far less resistant than a solidly-planted stake. I would suggest that the stake was used more for aiming purposes than for strength training. After all, if you can consistently strike the center of a six-inch-wide pole, you'll have no trouble striking a much wider human body. <p></p><i></i>

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!<br>
<br>
Good point, John. Also remember that according to Vegetius, training at the post or stake was done with a WOODEN practice sword, not your battle sword. Sure, you'll still have the considerations of grip shape, but you won't have to worry about bending your point or snapping the tang by whaling on the wood pile, eh?<br>
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And yeah, as usual, a lot of our stuff is too big and clunky compared to the originals. I REALLY envy you guys with access to the museums!!<br>
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Valete,<br>
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Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>

[richsc]

That is a good point; punching into an enemy shield probably gets your sword stuck in it. Can't imagine that there was a way to twist or pull the shield away, or any reason to waste time doing so. <p>Legio XX<br>
Caupona Asellinae</p><i></i>

[Hibernicus]

The bone grips on Indian gladiuses are often sealed with a polymer that can be sanded off.<br>
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Today's mantra: Polymer bad, natural bone good.<br>
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______<br>
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I have noticed a significant difference between a generic bone grip and one I made to fit my hand... fingers ridges matched to my grip, length of the grip to fit the width of my hand, slightly tapered, then flatter at one end than the other, .... sized to fit.<br>
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In practice with my gladius I have noticed that the unsealed bone grip is easier to hold onto, that as my palm became sweaty the grip became securer. It is also easier to grip a natural unsealed bone handle when its bloody. I had been told that many many years ago.... a small bleeding finger cut several years back gave me an opportunity to experiment with great success.<br>
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For years I had been carving similar handrips in my rattan simulated swords because of the advantage they give for control. A grip that's easier to hold for one thrust is easier to hold for hours at a time... less strain on the formarm, less energy expended in gripping.<br>
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Because I've been practicing with simulated weapons on a weekly basis for many years my hand rarely slips forward off the grip anymore... whether using an ash rudis or rattan rudis.. no matter how hard I stab the post.<br>
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Conrtolled thrusts are also a factor. Fencing lunges are tiresome and exert too much energy and exposed the arm and torso to devastating counter attack..... Short jabs followed by a deliberate recovering stroke... returning to "on garde" if you will ... can be extremely effective and do not require deep penetration... this reduces the need to strike with maximum force on each stroke... the blade need only penetrate a few inches.... not come out through his gluteus maximus or kidney...<br>
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Besides you do not want to risk losing your gladius, deeply thurst into your opponent's torso, having it wrenched out of your hand he twists violently away... or getting stuck in his pelvis bones. Lotta good that'll do you!<br>
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Old Leg IX addage: <em>"Don't need to kill'em, just gotta wound'em. Remember boyos: Guts and nuts!"</em><br>
A bunch of bleeding writhing wounded guys piling in front of your scutum not wanting to be stepped on or fallen on makes it much more difficult for an undisciplined enemy to advance...<br>
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Hibernicus<br>
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[Anonymous]

a couple of thoughts<br>
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not all Roman sword handles are the classic hexagonal grooved pattern.<br>
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also if modern men are larger than Roman men is it unreasonable to scale up equipment?<br>
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afterall you may have to do so for footwear, armour and helmets <p><img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.martin/forum/mark.gif
" width="100" height="100" align="right">
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[Hibernicus]

Vardulli wrote: "...also if modern men are larger than Roman men is it unreasonable to scale up equipment?"<br>
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Speak for yourself Oh Titan!<br>
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Some of us are average human height males.. myself being 5' 3" umm... 1.6 meters, I mean metres.<br>
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And besides, not all Romans are Italianos.. some are Celtoids<br>
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Though I do agree about the need for scaling up.. and out in some instances<br>
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Hibernicus <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

They were Hobbit's........................... <br>
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But seriousely..... has anyone ever come across a genuine totally preserved sword??<br>
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in which the hilt retained the proper original form?? or even the blade?<br>
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Me thinks not.... so maybe our reconstructions could be made better, if you calculate in the wear and tear of a sword having been in the ground for 2000 years....<br>
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greetzzz<br>
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M.VIB.M.<br>
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[Anonymous]

Originals being in the ground or just wearing away for a few thousand years will certainly damage the actual "look" of the original components<br>
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I do think that the grips were "custom" made - to better fit the hand of the individual. Grips that seem "too small" are probably the better grips - a really tight grip, with the hilt and pommel against your hand - will provide a pretty good grip, even with that "hexagonal" shaped bone grip. I got a chance to handle a very accurately made Viking type pattern-welded sword, and the grip was tiny - I was afraid my hand would hurt gripping onto the hilt and pommel, but once the hand was "locked" in there, it was surpirsingly comfortable and very easy to control.<br>
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I also wonder then if say the bone grip was constantly adjusted or "sharpened" (?) by the individual legionary, that it got to such an odd shape/pattern?<br>
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I've found that with my DPK Pompeii that if I grip it tightly, with my first finger and thumb tight against the bottom of the hilt, that I don't suffer as much pain/fatigue thrusting. Eventually I'd like to shorten the grip, or get and modify an Albion Fulham (drool) to give a better grip, cause the hand sliding down to the pommel does get annoying.<br>
I'll have to take Hiberincus' suggestion and sand down the polymer on my grip and try that out.<br>
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I also agree that it doesn't really take alot of force to jab through a [body] - if the blade is fairly sharp, you can probably do a heckuva lot of damage - and with quick jabs and stabs rather than [lunging] thrusts, and you probably really don't have to thrust in too deeply to cause alot of damage/pain. I think the only time you'd possibly need to thrust and hard is to get your way through [maille] armor - but why bother, go for the face or something squishy and unprotected.<br>
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valette<br>
ANDY <p>-ANDY aka "Roman Dude" Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re</p><i></i>

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

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I think that the jabs and stabs classic technique does not explain a so thin grip, nor the guard/hilt trust for levering. After all it's a sword, not a brush!<br>
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Maybe that it was a problem of material: a cow bone it's dimensioned so and you can get just a thin bone grip from it. If you want a bigger grip, you must use another and not so cheap and "strategic" material.<br>
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Otherwise you can easily cover the bone with leather straps. But in the <span style="text-decoration:underline">twisted</span> bone version of gladii grips, the bone was left in the same bone diameter, and it's really more confortable, I've tried it (a replica)... So, why the most of the original gladii grips are the famous deep grooves? A coincidence? The twisted grip design tell us that some roman soldiers did not agree with the grooved grips we usually take as "standard" and got other designs, to use their tools better and without hand and wrist problems.<br>
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Valete,<br>
Titus<br>
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P.S. Last thought: blood on the unsealed bone grip..., it makes the grip first pink, then brown... And I guess that after the first fight, any roman soldier sword had its grip so. The 100% white bone grips we see in the re-enactment could be unaccurate, so let's paint with our blood your grips...<br>
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