Lorica Musculata made of Metal or leather?

[Damianus Albus]

D'Amato seems to be able to look at a piece of carved stone and magically divine whether the items being depicted are made from metal, leather, and cloth.

Well that's the thing I've tried to show him, but then he replies like "learn greek, write a book, then we can talk".

I mean, I know groups which takes D'Amato books as a source for reanactment. I guess it's very damaging to reanactors world if someone reads "it was clearly made in leather" and don't even ask "but why clearly? becasue of what? becasue it is written like this here?" etc etc but takes it as a certai fact based on someone's opinion (according to D'Amato, not opinion but evidence).

[ValentinianVictrix]

I have taken quite a few photographs of stone and bronze statues of Emperors and high ranking officials when I was visiting Turkey a couple of years ago. Most wore muscle cuirasses, the majority of which from the hinges and pins displayed indicated that they were made out of metal. Some however had definite bends where the ribbon was tied around the cuirasse, potentially indicating it was soft enough for the ribbon to not only grip on to but also press into when pulled tight.

I am not sure what the softer material could have been though.

As an aside, the flying jackets worn by American military pilots were generally made of goat skin, of which material some have claimed was the 'Libyan Hides' that the Thoracomachus was made from according to the 'De Rebus Bellicis'.

[Damianus Albus]

True, it is possibility but then you must consider how to make hard, musculed armor which at the same time bends under ribbon?

Another option is that, it's simply carved stone and it looks like this. Metal cuirasses are tigher around navel point so if you tie ribbon around that point and carve it, it might look like ribbon is squezeeing armor, but in fact it doesn't becasue armor on its own is sqezeed at this point.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

As an aside, the flying jackets worn by American military pilots were generally made of goat skin, of which material some have claimed was the 'Libyan Hides' that the Thoracomachus was made from according to the 'De Rebus Bellicis'.

No, the Thorocomachus was not made of Libyan Hide, it was a quilted linen or felt garment 1-2 finger widths thick with an outer layer of "libyan hide." Most scholars interpret it that the outer layer for waterproofing was 1. very thin and 2. was the suggested improvement, meaning this had not yet been done.

[ValentinianVictrix]

Evan, where do you get the historical reference about the Thorocomachus being as you state?

[Flavivs Aetivs]

... The De Rebus Bellicis... which is what records the existence of the armor.

[Renatus]

... The De Rebus Bellicis... which is what records the existence of the armor.

Where exactly in the DRB does it say that the thoracomachus is 'a quilted linen or felt garment 1-2 finger widths thick' or is your edition different from mine? And its not armour.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Where exactly in the DRB does it say that the thoracomachus is 'a quilted linen or felt garment 1-2 finger widths thick' or is your edition different from mine? And its not armour.

Umm... in the section on the Thorocomachus. The De Rebus Bellicis is a list of suggestions for improvement of existing military technology.

Here's the Ireleand copy of the DRB's Latin text:

Expositio thoracomachi

1. Inter omnia, quae ad usum bellicum provida posteritatis cogitavit antiquitas, thoracomachum quoque mira utilitate ad levamen corporis armorum ponderi et asperitati subiecit. 2. Hoc enim vestimenti genus, quod de coactili ad mensuram et tutelam pectoris humani conficitur, de mollibus lanis timoris sollicitudo sollertia magistra composuit, ut hoc inducto primum lorica vel cliveanus aut his similia fragilitatem corporis ponderis asperitate non laederent, membra quoque vestientis inter armorum hiemisque discrimen tali solacio adiuta labori sufficiant. 3. Sane ne idem thoracomachus pluviis verberatus ingravescente pondere adficiat vestientem, de Lybicis bene confectis pellibus ad instar eiusdem thoracomachi faciem conveniet superinducere. 4. Hoc igitur, ut diximus, thoracomacho inducto – qui Graeca appellatione ex tuitione corporis nomen assumpsit –, soccis etiam, hoc est calciamentis, et ferratis ocreis inductis, superimposita galea et scuto vel gladio lateri aptato, arreptis lanceis, in plenum pedestrem subiturus pugnam miles armabitur.

I don't have time to translate it right now... or at all this weekend, to be honest.

[Renatus]

Here's the Ireleand copy of the DRB's Latin text . . . I don't have time to translate it right now... or at all this weekend, to be honest.

No problem. Here is Ireland's own translation:

'Description of the défenseur de poitrine

The ancients, among many things which, in their forethought for posterity, they devised for use in war, prescribed also the défenseur de poitrine to counteract the weight and friction of armour: it is amazingly useful for protecting the body. This type of garment is made of thick cloth to the measure and for the protection of the upper part of the human frame; fearful apprehension, guided by cleverness, devised it, so that, after it has been put on first, the breastplate, or suit of armour, or something similar, cannot injure the frail body by its roughness and weight; and again, the limbs of the wearer, helped by this means of relief, will be able to do their work amidst the difficulties of warfare and cold weather. But in any case, so that the défenseur de poitrine may not cause problems for the wearer with its increasing weight when it is soaked with rain, it will be advisable to put over on top a covering garment made of nicely-treated Libyan hide in the shape of the défenseur de poitrine itself. So, when the défenseur de poitrine has been put on as I have described - it derives its name through Greek nomenclature, from its protecting the body - and with pumps (footware, that is) and steel greaves put on, a helmet on his head and a shield and sword slung by his side, snatching up his spears, the soldier will be completely armed, ready to go into an infantry engagement.'

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Well I stand corrected on it mentioning the 1-2 finger thickness of the garment, but it does state it is of thick wool.

it will be advisable to put over on top a covering garment made of nicely-treated Libyan hide in the shape of the défenseur de poitrine itself.

The phrasing of this is what leads most scholars to believe that the Libyan hide is the suggestion for improvement.

[Renatus]

it will be advisable to put over on top a covering garment made of nicely-treated Libyan hide in the shape of the défenseur de poitrine itself.

The phrasing of this is what leads most scholars to believe that the Libyan hide is the suggestion for improvement.

I agree. I suggested as much back in 2012:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/thread-...#pid270525