Lorica Musculata made of Metal or leather?

[Robert]

As far as I can tell, that statue depicts Washington bare chested and no musculata except the one his mother gave him in sight ..... :dizzy:

With all the current attention to musculata and curas on the forum, it looks like the old story of "All chiefs, no Indians" is once again rearing its head :whistle: .

The "officer" crossing the boatbridge on Trajans column is walking ahead of the eagle and the highly decorated standards, so I would presume we are speaking of someone of a very high rank, like a legate or tribune.

[ValentinianVictrix]

I'm not adverse to the idea that the troops shown wearing muscle cuirasses during the Late Roman period are actually Palatine units.

[Dan Howard]

At least there is a precedent for metal musculatas. The Greeks wore them for centuries and we even have Roman examples - just not from the right time period. Where is the precedent for leather musculatas?

[Vitruvius]

Ave, Y'all
I know what you are saying Dan, I agree with you about pre- Imperial Musculatas being extant. But I just have tp repeat myself: We as a group are never going to solve this question unless one of us comes up with a working time machine, go back to the Imperial period and bring back an Imperial Legate and a late Roman Officer to find out and again: Boy will they be angry!!!!!!! lol.
Salve,
Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager....who has swung to the metal side (No relation to the Dark Side).

[M. Demetrius]

Boy will they be angry!

Not to mention, Confused!

[Vitruvius]

Ave, Frater Dave,
I'll sing the "Amen" to that......so will Antonia!!!LOL
Regards and Salve,
Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager

[Doc]

Hello Larry,

I too agree with Dan about what he said BUT his comment holds true even for the Imperial period. Why would the Romans go from very effective and protective metal armor to something less efficient. For leather to protect someone, it would have to be way thicker than its metal counterpart. Then if it gets wet, could you imagine the weight? If you leave the leather at 1-2mm thickness, it can easily be penetrated by a weapon. So, what exactly would the reason be for a leather musculata?

I cannot understand what the morbid desire is with leather. I am not saying its impossible and neither is Dan. All we are saying is that there is NO EVIDENCE IN ANY TIME PERIOD (Greek or Roman) OF LEAHTER MUSCULATA. It cannot even be argued for consistency. If the Greeks had used a leather musculata then you could have somewhat of an argument. but they did not. There is simply no reason for it at all. The time machine argument has been used several times here on RAT BUT it has become cliché and does not add to the argument.

Again, I go back to presentation, display etc. If you have the armor displayed in your house as a prop, then you can also go with plastic. If you want the most accurate representation to date for a musculata, then ONLY METAL can be used. Anything else is a supposition without support for this particular armor.

Besides, if a person can afford musculata why buy cheaper leather armor?

[Vitruvius]

Hi Doc,
I have come to the conc lusion that during most of out time periods, Metal was the way to go. I'm not so certain about that at the time of the split between the East and West, due to numerous plagues which might very well have killed off a goodly amount of the metal smiths. What are your thoughts on that as I am a bit out of my field of interest.
I really think that you have summarized the argument extremely well , I think that if a person can't understand the argument as a result of your comments, they will NEVER understand it. You even got through to a "Bull Headed" guy like I tend to be!!!!LOL I admit that my metal musculata will be similar to the late Doug Arnold's in terms of decoration, or lack there of. I have also come to agree with Dan, that ( at least in terms of Musculata decoration ) one simply CANNOT rely on MOST statuary.....lMost of them are basically BillBoards for Imperial Propaganda. What are your thoughts on that, Mi Frater? Or am I being TOO negative? Thanks again for your explanation LOL You are a true Friend
Saalve, Mi Frater
Vitruvius.......aka Larry Mager

[Doc]

Hello Larry,

I would say that the Prima Porta is propaganda for sure. However, some of the simpler ones had decorations having to do with some mythical creatures or real animals, other have mythological figures. So from a single relief point of view they cannot all be deemed propaganda. That is what they included because that was part of Roman life or belief.

Now the question is of course were all those high relief figures applied or beaten out of the actual armor. In my opinion, they were beaten out. Why? Because the Romans could do it. Just have a look at many of the gladiator helmets. Those were not cast and yet the figures on those helmets are very detailed and in relief. Thus, a metal musculata with beaten out figures, animal, acanthus plant......whatever......would be the way to go.

[Vitruvius]

Hi Doc,
Just got your latest Musculata info. I have to say that your points are VERY convincing! Being able to beat out 3D figures in leather makes me wonder just how thick the leather tongue pteruges are. Any suggestions, Paolo? Anthing that would make doing the belts easier I am all for.
Again, I wonder how much of the Iconography we can really rely on. Again, I thank you for your help and comments and I await your athoughts on this, my latest.
Salve MiFrater and Amici,
Vitruvius ,,,,,Larry Mager

[Doc]

Larry,

I do not think that the figures on the tongue pteryges were made of raised leather. I think they were cast and applied to the leather surface. How they were applied is anyone's guess. However, I think that any fastening method common to the Romans could be used.

[M. Demetrius]

Think of a fancy "apron button" with a riveted back.

[Vitruvius]

Hi Paolo and David,
I appreciate you most recent comments. They could be spot on. I also think that Tony Congiano's way is workable (Check it out on his website, It's easier to show as opposed to telling. I think that it is on.Congiano's website. I think that the statute of Antonius Severus shows the front row of tongues with the 3-D appliques and the back row looks like they are embossed, so things might well be the combination of both.
Let me know what Y'all think, please?
Salve Mi Fraters,
Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager

[ValentinianVictrix]

I'm surprised no one put this up as an argument for leather armour in use at least during the 3rd Century AD-

http://ecatalogue.art.yale.edu/detail.ht...ctId=78681

[Flavivs Aetivs]

It's an interesting prospect, would work well for some light infantry, but it probably wasn't widespread, especially in this form. I wonder if its sassanid? I know they found a 3rd century Sassie helmet at Europus.