Use of Leather as armor

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Or metal that hadn't been hardened?

[Vitruvius]

Ave, y'all,
It is known that Octavian DID have some health issues, and yes, he did wear extra tunicas, but it was definitely NOT armor of leather, as much as many of us would wish.Sorry, Y'all. BTW, One has to wonder if the family as a whole didn't have medical problems as Gaius Julius himself wore long sleeved tunicas.
Salve for now,
Vitruvius.............aka Larry Mager

[Dan Howard]

Didn't Seutonius write that he wore mail under his toga when in public?

[Vitruvius]

Ave, Dan,
Vitruvius here, I can't seem to find my copy of Suetonius.....maybe someone else can tell us. It makes sense to me, at least for his 1st few years.
Salve, my friend, for now,
Vitruvius....aka Larry Mager

[Quintas]

hi all Just wondering what your definition of leather is and what you call Rawhide and how they are
diferent

[Dan Howard]

There is no point trying to make a distinction. The texts rarely tell whether an item was leather or rawhide and once an item has been in the ground for a millennia or two it is difficult to tell the difference. When I discuss "leather" armour I am referring to animal hide of all types regardless of whether it has been tanned or not.

[PhilusEstilius]

Larry.
I have been reading my Suetonius but in reference to another Emperor such as Galba when he set off for Rome when he discovered that Nero was dead in para' 11 where there is mention of armour, quote :- So he put himself on his journey clad in his coat armour, with his dagger hanging down from about his neck just before his breast ; -: unquote
Therefore this coat armour must imply a leather jack or leather armour of some sort but what ??

[Flavivs Aetivs]

It could be the same as saying "Coat of Maile" or "Coat of Scale" armor maybe.

[caiusbeerquitius]

So he put himself on his journey clad in his coat armour, with his dagger hanging down from about his neck just before his breast

Why not fabric?

[PhilusEstilius]

That could well be however why not leather for all we keep hearing on Rat is there were no leather muscled cuirass simply because none have yet been found, but then there have as yet been no Roman metal ones found so just what are we looking at when we see Emperors and Officers wearing such armour.

[Vitruvius]

Ave y'all
Brian, I have to wonder if the coat being referred to is, perhaps an early form of Brigandine. Dan, you're usually up on this sort of stuff......Brigandine or similar?
Personally, I'm enjoying this thread, even though I'm tending towards the metal side of the issue now.
Let me throw out an idea here, to wit: Since the Romans used Rudis in training, why not leather armor during said training. Just as it saved wear and tear on the real gladii,
so might leather armor do the same for the metal........I didn't say it was a GOOD idea..lol.
Salve,
Vitruvius....aka Larry Mager

[Titvs Statilivs Castvs]

It was not to save wear and tear. It was 1) so that they did not bloody kill each other and 2) so that they had to practice with heavier weapons than normally.

We do not have proof for something like this.

On the other hand, they might have used buckets on their heads during training.

[Doc]

Lets put it this way.........it does not matter if Roman leather or metal musculata have been found or not. The fact is that no leather musculata has been found in ANY Greek, Etruscan or Roman contexts. The only one attributed to the Romans is from the book of D'Amato AND its metal. Moreover, in the Metropolitan Museum in NY, ALL the musculata examples are metal and they derive from the other two. There are also Southern Italian musculata examples in the Met....they are metal.

If there had been a leather musculata found previous to the Romans the argument could hold water. But no DICE.

Also the argument, its leather and so it rotted.....holds NO water. Many leather items have been found and some in decent enough condition to extrapolate quite plausible means of construction or composition. So something like a musculata which is considerably larger than caligae, would have left some sort of trace somewhere throughout the three civilizations mentioned above.

[Sean Manning]

Also the argument, its leather and so it rotted.....holds NO water. Many leather items have been found and some in decent enough condition to extrapolate quite plausible means of construction or composition. So something like a musculata which is considerably larger than caligae, would have left some sort of trace somewhere throughout the three civilizations mentioned above.

I would have agreed with that, but I think I remember that Bishop and Coulston disagree, explaining that hide treated in some ways is much more likely to survive in Northern European contexts than hide treated other ways. I think they give some specific examples of Roman army equipment which was treated one way and often survives, and Roman army equipment which was treated another way and is hardly known archaeologically. Just like wool clothing often survives in damp contexts, but linen almost never does. So I don't think this is the best argument. After all, we don't have a lot of evidence for organic tube-and-yoke armours either!

[Sean Manning]

Larry.
I have been reading my Suetonius but in reference to another Emperor such as Galba when he set off for Rome when he discovered that Nero was dead in para' 11 where there is mention of armour, quote :- So he put himself on his journey clad in his coat armour, with his dagger hanging down from about his neck just before his breast ; -: unquote
Therefore this coat armour must imply a leather jack or leather armour of some sort but what ??

I suspect that that translation is quite old. The translator of Galba 11 iterque ingressus est paludatus ac dependente a cervicibus pugione ante pectus renders paludatus "dressed in a military cloak" as "clad in his coat armour". In the 14th and 15th centuries, the coat-armour was the outermost layer of a gentleman's military dress, and marked special seriousness and determination (see this essay by Will McLean). So it is not a bad translation to help a late medieval audience understand that he put aside the trappings of civil life and adopted those of military life. Today it is not so easy!