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06-07-2004, 10:44 AM

Here are 2 illustrations from the 3rd century. The battle of Lyons and a soldier fighting the Persians(see the arrows in his shield!). Hope you folks like 'em!! 
Johnny 
<img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v245/shumate/Lego.jpg"/> 
<img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v245/shumate/Lyons1.jpg"/>

Uwe Bahr · 06-07-2004, 10:56 AM

Nice Johnny, 
 
more of this 
 
Uwe

06-07-2004, 11:17 AM

Here is another from the 3rd century. 
<img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v245/shumate/Lyons3_copy.jpg"/>

06-07-2004, 04:06 PM

Ave Johnny, 
 
Very nice. Love those pteruges! You've really got a masterful hand. Keep on posting. 
 
Valete, Quintus Florentius 
LEGVIVICPF 
www.florentius.com 
<img src="http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v212/jaredfleury/tabulimgif.gif" style="border:0;"/> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jaredfleury>jaredfleury</A> at: 6/7/04 6:08 pm

**Robert Vermaat** · 06-07-2004, 05:29 PM

Gripping. Very good on the atmosphere of the battle. 
Any 4th c. stuff? 
And where can we buy the calender?! 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

NightHunter24 · 06-07-2004, 07:17 PM

Ave, 
 
These pic sketches are veeery niiice. I like'em, keep up the good work! 
 
 
Vale 
NH24

FlaviusCrispus · 06-08-2004, 02:50 AM

Ave, illuminatorus magnus! 
 
(that's probably lousy Latin, but what the hey) 
 
I like your work much better than Angus' McBride's stuff in the most recent Osprey book (Legionary, AD 161-284). Much more detail, and the equipment (particularly the revised Newstead cuirasses) seems a lot more correct than in a lot of McBride's illustrations. They've got me all fired up to create an early 3rd century impression! 
 
I still have a small quibble with the idea of wearing a scale coif, and no helmet, with a Newstead. I know this is based on the Alba Iulia relief, but the soldier's head is missing, so we don't know if he's helmeted or not. I know some of the Dura Europus paintings show soldiers wearing coifs with no helmets, but their body armor is scale or mail. It just seems odd to me that you'd surround the vitals of your body with so much impact-resistant plate armor, then protect the most vital bit of all, your head, with just a thin scale coif, offering no impact protection at all. I prefer to think of the Alba Iulia relief as showing either a soldier wearing a scale gorget of some kind (with helmet), or a variant cuirass with a scale or mail upper and plate girdle section (a la Mike Bishop's reconstruction). I much prefer your illustrations of soldiers wearing cross-braced Auxliary H variants and Niedermormter-style helmets. 
 
The last cuirass looks interesting, sort of a Newstead variant with lames running all the way up to the neck, instead of the usual breast plates. Also, it looks as if it's fastened with turnkeys running all the way up. Is this correct, and is it based on some new bit of archaeology and/or pictoral evidence I haven't seen yet? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 6/8/04 4:51 am

Goffredo · 06-08-2004, 07:41 AM

I agree 101%. I am not an expert but I try to use my brains. I conclude the use of a coif without a helmet is unlikely because it would be stupid to use body armour and then not use the most vital form of of protection against blows to the most sensitive part of the body, besides the shield! 
I asked this before and never got an answer. I imagine the coif, in its scale or maile versions, is just a felxible way of protecting the ears, neck and throat against indirect blows and missiles. The coif was not intended to protect the head. The helmet was more than a piece of metal. The cap or padding, space, the play and finally the deformation of the rigid metal all contributed to absorbing the blow so that the brain inside the skull had a chance of not being crushed or exposed or of rebounding dangeously to the point of hitting the bone or turing into jello! 
 
The coif directly in contact with the skull would abosrb nothing, just like maile on an arm would not protect from a bone-shattering blow.

06-08-2004, 09:41 AM

So are you saying a helmet on top or a helmet underneath the scale or mail ? 
 
I have tentativeley thought that some form of scull cap would have been worn underneath of meatal or some serious padding. 
 
Conal

TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS · 06-08-2004, 09:59 AM

Since that wearing the mail under the helmet seems uncomfortable, it could be possible too they had a very cheap and simple helmet under the mail. Less or more at the time that cheaper helmets like the Intercisas appeared. Those helmets could fill the gap among the imperials and the Intercisas. 
 
In the confusion of the second half of the III century, lacking good classic imperial or auxiliary cavalry helmets, a mail coif could be easily obtained from old loricae hamatae to cover a cheap two halves metal pre-ridge helmet. Together could work fine enough anyway and being plausible with a seg too. Few years after a further improvement of that simple ridge helmets could bring to the Intercisa types... Just wandering. 
 
Valete, 
Titus

FlaviusCrispus · 06-08-2004, 09:44 PM

So, our guy is able to equip himself with a new-model Newstead, a manica for his sword arm, and a scutum, but can't find a proper helmet for his head and is forced to use a piece of old squamata fashioned into a coif? 
 
Somehow, I doubt it. 
 
The archaeological record seems to show the later so-called auxiliary helmet models with the deep neck guard, cross braces and face-covering cheek guards in use right up until the time the spangenhelms and ridge helmets came into use in the late third century. 
 
Rather than putting on a helmet under or over a coif, I rather see a coif/gorget being fastened in some way to the helmet, like the mail aventails of Persian and Byzantine helmets. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI VPF 
California, USA

06-08-2004, 10:46 PM

Very nice! 
 
Whate medium are you using and what is it done on? Looks like watercolor?? 
 
As one Artist to another if you don't mind a little critique - The 2nd illustration, the fellow who is extreme close-up on the lower left side...The face needs some depth work and definition...If this is just a sketch, that's fine, but if you want to explore that work more and see where it can go, It'd try to work on his face a little more...It's obviously a tricky ballance on composition...We don't want to be led away from the central figures duking it out....but you then notice the lower left face and to me at least, looks a bit odd. 
 
Also - keep in check the size/proportion of your hands/fists towards the faces...The central guys's hands look a bit...big. Otherwise the look/shape of the hands and fingers look very good. 
 
Otherwise keep up the great work, I like the variety in equipment too! -ANDY aka "Roman Dude" Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re 
 
www.higgins.org

06-09-2004, 02:14 AM

I work in gouache, opaque watercolor. 
Those hands are a little big and the guys face does need work. I agree. These illustrations are in my sketch pad and are really just studies. I'll try to get some of my "tighter"work up next week! 
Thanks for all the comments! 
Johnny

Vincula · 06-09-2004, 09:58 AM

Pardon my ignorence but, what is the point of a coif? 
In the movies, knights wear them under the helmet, don't they?

06-09-2004, 09:15 PM

Guache! Cool! I've tried that myself a few times, interesting to work with...Although I got stuck inadvertanly with an "Acrylic" Guache...Which in itself is an interesting medium! Although you can't reconsitute it as you can with watercolor or "regular" guache...Yeah I know kinda dumb but hey....at the time, poor unknowing art student. Tongue

what kind of paper do you use? -ANDY aka "Roman Dude" Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re 
 
www.higgins.org

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