Hecantontomachi

[Danielmeijers]

Are there any outside sources on Hecantontomachi except for Flavius Josephus?
And what were these troop types,? The same as phalangites?

[Macedon]

I know of no other source speaking of the hekatontamachoi. They are mentioned in the army of Alexander Jannaeus assembled to fight against Ptolemy IX Lathyros, so they should be better armed Jews, as Josephus suggests, armed with thyreoi shields clad in bronze, which on its own differentiates them from the hellenistic phalangites.

[Danielmeijers]

How so?
I thought Hellenistic phalangites were standardly equiped with bronze shields!
In the same source a line downwards Josephus mentions that the army of Ptolemy also was armed with bronze shield!

[Macedon]

Hellenistic phalangites were equipped with a round shield commonly called in the sources either an aspis or a pelte. Josephus indeed writes that the promachoi of Ptolemy were equipped with shields clad in bronze too. However :

The men of Ptolemy were equipped with aspidae while those of Alexander with thyreoi (maybe your translation calls both of them shields? The original Greek text differentiates). Men bearing oblong shields (thyreoi) did not historically fight with sarissae/pikes (which I assume is what you mean by phalangite)

The text reads :

"εἶχεν μέντοι τοὺς προμαχομένους ὀκτακισχιλίους, οὓς ἑκατονταμάχους προσηγόρευσεν, ἐπιχάλκοις χρωμένους τοῖς θυρεοῖς. ἦσαν δὲ καὶ τοῖς τοῦ Πτολεμαίου προμαχοῦσιν ἐπίχαλκοι αἱ ἀσπίδες", Josephus, AJ, 13.339

[Danielmeijers]

Interesting!
Yes I am sorry I am not taught in ancient Greek, that is why turned to this forum.
So what did these men fight with then?
And with an oblong shield, do you mean those like of theuroperoi?

Could it be that hypothetically they would have been modeled towards th Roman legionary?
As much as the Seulucids adapted their troops.

[Macedon]

Yes, thureophoroi or thyreophoroi were men armed with a thureos or thyreos, that is an oblong shield like that of most Republican Roman armies, the Celts etc.

-phoros means -bearer in Greek. So, a sarisophoros is someone who is armed with a sarisa, an aspidophoros, one that is armed with an aspis (a more generic term for shield), doryphoros or doruphoros, one armed with a dory or doru (spear) etc.

So, these men were Jewish soldiers bearing oblong shields clad in bronze. Their offensive armament would logically resemble that of the rest of the Jewish men-at-arms. What that was I cannot say at the moment, you should look it up.

Regarding your question on whether they could have been modeled after the Roman legionaries, I very much doubt it. This is indeed hinted at by Josephus but for much later days, when he was in charge. I also doubt that the Seleucids did indeed produce "legionaries" as a fighting force but this is another discussion. The Roman manner of fighting was more a system than mere shields and weapons. Read on this Josephus, DBJ, 2.576

[Danielmeijers]

Yes considering the legionaries you are probably right.

Thank you very much for taking the effort in helping me! Especialy in Greek.

By the way I thought Josephus wrote his works in Latin! Since it clearly was meant for a Roman audience!
But then thinking about it, another purpose for his works were meant to disclaim several lies spread by some Greek authors.

[Macedon]

Most of the non-Romans at the time wrote in Greek and not in Latin, it was Greek that most people spoke at the time, especially in the east. IIRC, Josephus actually writes someplace that he had help in writing his works for his Greek was not that good. As for the "lies" spread by Greek writing authors, he indeed mentions many "mistakes" as he professes but one had better look at his effort as one to propagate his own view of things as well as the "official", as he asserts, Jewish side. His works are filled with obvious exaggerations and mistakes, he often contradicts himself, do not get me wrong, he works are very important and extremely informative but under no circumstances does this mean that there was an anti-Jewish propaganda that he tried to answer to and that his version of the truth is more trustworthy. He mainly "corrects" authors much more ancient than him while, if he is to be trusted in that, there were no Hebrew historians before him.

[Danielmeijers]

I found in the war scroll a similar depiction for a thureopos.

[sup](3) The rule for arranging the clivisions for war when their army is complete to make a forward battle line: the battle line shall be formed of one thousand men. There shall be seven forward rows
(4) to each battle line, arranged in order; the stahon of each man behind his fellow. All of them shall bear shields of bronze, polished like
(5) a face mirror. The shield shall be bound with a border of plaited work and a design of loops, the work of a skillful workman; gold, silver, and bronze bound together
(6) and jewels; a multicolored brocade. It is the work of a skillful workman, artistically done. The length of the shield shall be two and a half cubits, and its breadth a cubit and a half. In their hands they hold a lance
(7) and a sword. The length of the lance shall be seven cubits, of which the socket and the blade constitute half a cubit. On the socket there she be three bands engraved as a border of plaited
(8) work; of gold, silver, and Copper bound together like an artistically designed work. And in the loops of the de sign, on both sides of the band [/sup]


So supposedly these Hecantontomachi were thureuperoi!
But if Thureuperoi were light infantry and used in such a way, why woul Alexander Janeus use them on the frontline?
Or perhaps it is the mountainous area of Judea that demanded a more heavy form of light infantry?

[Macedon]

Daniel, you sound confused... who says that the thyreophoroi were "light infantry"? The Roman legionaries were thryeophoroi too. And what do you mean by "light infantry" The definition of light infantry in tactics has nothing to do with armament, it has to do with the mode of fighting. Men who usually fight in line are by definition "heavy infantry"even if armed with a stick and the lid of a garbage bin. Men who normally fight in "skirmish" which is more correctly called "in disperse formation" are "light" even if in full scale armor, helm, long shield and battle-axe.

I do not understand the question about why Jannaeus would use thyreophoroi... This was the shield customarily used by his troops, where is the issue?