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**richsc** · 09-04-2003, 11:17 PM

I have to thank (brown nose?) Matt Amt for his continual instructions on speculations in the area of Roman reconstruction. I think the lesson from the article on English longbows in the magazine Living History is a perfect example. 
Modern archers use bows of draw weight of typically no more than 60-75 pounds, and that is heavy. Reconstructions of longbows followed that pattern. 
The author of the article on longbows said modern archers were in stunned disbelief when the long bows from the Henry VIII ship Mary Rose tested out to 150-175 pounds draw! The training required to use those to their effective 300 yard range indeed took years to develop. I seem to remember, and I can well understand, that physical anthropologists find the evidence of the ligature development on the skeletons of archers. 
What a shame that the Romans cremated the dead! 
 
Anyway, the point being that the best speculation of Tudor and medieval reconstructionists on longbows was way off the reality of the weapon. Similarly, speculation on Romans can be way off track without evidence. 
Legio XX 
Fortius Conamur

09-05-2003, 09:34 AM

Salve 
 
There are surviving Roman military bodies, it's just that no-one has done the detailed kind of pathological analysis on them as has been done with the medieval bodies from the Towton grave pits. One body was from the Lunt fort outside Coventry, and as far as I can remember, the left arm was noticeably longer than the right from carrying around the shield! Wasn't there a body at Velsen as well? And what about all those bodies from Pompeii and Herculanium, surely some bones must have survived. All it needs is for someone with the same qualifications and enthusiasm as the Medieval bone scryers to do the same thing with the Romans. 
 
Any volunteers? 
 
Celer.

09-05-2003, 11:45 AM

Some autopsies have been made on roman soldiers. One for instance on a skeleton found at Herculaneum wearing a double military belt with gladius and pugio and carrying carpenter's tools. 
The man was in his early thirties and was a healthy and well fed individual. He had a slight deformation in the knees typical of people who ride horses a lot. In other words he was barrel legged. 
He also had two missing front teeth, accidentally lost (a thermopolia brawl?). He also had a lump in the left thigh bone indicating proper healing of a penetrating wound made by a weapon that penetrated all the bay to the bone. 
If I recall he was about 1.70 meters tall, but I'm not sure. 
It may be assumed he was a soldier from the fleet at Misenium, not far away from Herculaneum.

Matthew Amt · 09-05-2003, 04:02 PM

Forget it, Richard, you are NOT getting that promotion! Nice try, though. (Hee hee!) 
 
I was JUST over at the Armour Archive discussion board, where the subject of longbows versus armor was getting hot. The Mary Rose bows were mentioned, but I think the top end of the draw weight range was more like 130 pounds. There probably existed some stronger ones, but the average was closer to 100 pounds or so. Don't worry, that's still plenty effective, and with regular practice will indeed distort the skeleton in recognizable ways. 
 
But yeah, it really would have been more considerate of the Romans to neatly bury their dead! No respect for the future... I recall that the Velsen skeleton was a very tall guy, about 6'4", but I don't know if more thorough analysis was done of his bones. (Most of us have been focusing on his belt and dagger!) There have been some general tests on the Herculaneum skeletons, for size, health problems, I think lead content, that sort of thing, but no idea where any summary of that data might be. And yes, we'd LOVE to get more details on the Herculaneum soldier! Last I heard, he had disappeared in a custody battle or something--anyone got more recent info? 
 
One of my favorite "Look at the Evidence" stories is about a description of the cathedral at York by the Anglo-Saxon writer Bede. For generations he was scoffed at by great modern scholars, since he says the cathedral was bigger than the current one. HA! How could that be? (said they.) (Insert mental image of hairy, grunting Saxons trying to pile rocks high enough to reach the banana...) Well, a couple years ago some archeologists ran across what turned out to be the foundations of the cathedral described by Bede. And guess what? He was RIGHT! It was bigger than the current one. 
 
Sure, I prefer archeological evidence to literary if I can get it, and it pays to use ANY evidence carefully and scientifically. But beware of modern attitudes and preconceptions coloring your analyses. 
 
Vale, 
 
Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX

09-05-2003, 06:05 PM

Richard, et al., 
Thanks for helping bolster my thesis that the weight of the heavy wool toga, borne on the spine and left arm, helped train and keep in training the citizenry of Rome (and much of the ancient world). I would think that the habitual use of one arm for one certain set of functions and the other for a different set, compounded by the differences in weight and function (shield vs. weapon/ weighty gesture vs. free gesture) would contribute to different musculatures on the right and left sides, and a corresponding difference in skeletal and joint development. Even in the short time I've been giving presentations, my left shoulder and upper arm shows the difference. More than once a physician (annual checkup) mistook me for a lefty. And that's just from an irregular toga presentation every once in a while. Had I worn one from early childhood, and spent numbers of years carrying and using armor, shield and weapons, I cannot but suspect that my entire musculature would be altered. 
 
Wade Heaton 
Lucius Cornelius Libo 
[email protected] 
www.togaman.com Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=togaman>Togaman</A> at: 9/6/03 7:44 pm

Matthew Amt · 09-05-2003, 06:21 PM

Ave, Togaman! 
I heard about your theory just recently, and it's interesting. I'll admit that I was dubious at first, since my own toga is very fine wool and not all that heavy--though I have only worn it for a few minutes at a time, maybe once or twice a month. And as I think you have pointed out, it might be rather smaller in one dimension or another than the real thing (being c. 14 feet long by 6 feet wide). 
 
What's funny is my own less-than-serious theory along the same lines, but running in the other direction, as it were. I've been telling people that since the Romans reclined to eat, their left arms were so crippled that all they could do with them is clutch the toga! All the gesturing and eating gets done with the right hand... 
 
You're probably closer to the truth than I am, on this one! 
 
Vale, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

09-05-2003, 07:26 PM

Ave Matthew! 
At last! Something I can really discuss. Mine is larger (har-har) didn't mean it that way: eighteen feet (3x my height and twelve and a half--imperial overfold sinus). Sometimes I end up wearing mine four to six hours a day, several times a week. I guarantee that I feel it during and especially after. My theory really was born from the sore muscles. My theory also comes from the footwork involved in not stepping on the hem when turning to the left. I have to lead with the left arm so that the folds clear the feet. I surmise that the donning the toga in early childhood trained the muscles and made the footwork instinctive so that when the male put on the toga virilis and entered military training, he would already be accustomed to extra weight on the left arm and not trip on his shield (earlier long scutum). 
About the dining and immobility of the left arm: I have read in art books and costume books for years that the left arm is immobilized in the toga. I find that the opposite is true. What is different is type of gesture and movement. If the final folds are anchored firmly enough across the back under the umbo, the left hand does not usually have to clutch the folds, but simply rests there. However, when walking hurriedly, or climbing up or down stairs, the left hand anchors the folds and the right can sweep up the front to climb or see the steps in front and avoid shameful klutziness, like tripping and falling over face first. Oratorical manuals like Quintillian give some pointers for gestures during speechmaking and they have a few for the left hand to accentuate the broad, dramatic gestures of the right hand. 
Another factor: Ovid is forever inviting his mistress to crawl up and hide under his toga where her husband can't see her. I doubt he was exactly crippled as he embraced and fondled her at the Circus Maximus. 
About dining: We really have few, or rather no, images of Romans reclining to dine. Etruscan grave frescoes and Greek pottery painting show that there were a number of poses and uses of the left arm while dining and drinking--holding a platea or offering, cradling a drinking bowl, raising up on elbow to embrace a lover, etc.) The clinium had a kind of elbow rest that seems to have supported the ribcage under the armpit. And while the left arm would not have been flailing about much, it could do more than crumple up like a paralytic. 
As my presentation grows and branches out, I may learn a bit more. I find that the more I work with different types of clothing (and my models do the same with female dress) I see vase painting, frescoes, and sculpture differently. So the research and the discussion goes on. Thanks for feedback. It helped me clarify some things for myself.L et's do it some more! 
 
Wade Heaton 
Lucius Cornelius Libo 
[email protected] 
www.togaman.com Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=togaman>Togaman</A> at: 9/6/03 7:48 pm

Mithras · 06-14-2004, 08:37 PM

Thanks for helping bolster my thesis that the weight of the heavy wool toga, borne on the spine and left arm, helped train and keep in training the citizenry of Rome (and much of the ancient world). 
 
No! Which class of citizens wore the toga? 
 
Which class of citizens fought in the legions? AFAIK most legionaries were farmers and poor townsmen. Did these classes habitually wear the toga? 
 
Mmmm. I don't think so. Paul Elliott 
 
Heroes of Delphi - Classical Greece gone D20 
Zenobia - Fantasy RPG in the Eastern Roman Empire 
Warlords of Alexander - Kingdoms in conflict for the ruins of Alexander's Empire 
 
www.geocities.com/mithrapolis/games.html

06-14-2004, 09:07 PM

Well, the toga wearing citizens were usually the officers of the non toga wearing citizens..

06-14-2004, 09:13 PM

I think I saw that Herculaneum dude a little while ago at a cafe...Looked a little stiff, musta been out in the sun too long? 
-ANDY aka "Roman Dude" Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re 
 
www.higgins.org

Matthew Amt · 06-15-2004, 04:11 PM

Mithras wrote: "No! Which class of citizens wore the toga? 
 
Which class of citizens fought in the legions? AFAIK most legionaries were farmers and poor townsmen. Did these classes habitually wear the toga? 
 
Mmmm. I don't think so." 
 
Well, there is going to be some variation depending on the era, of course, but the short answer is that ANY citizen would wear a toga whenever custom required it. 
 
Back in the Republic, with the citizen army, citizens without property were not eligible for military duty. The smaller landowners and shopkeepers would fill the ranks. These are the very sorts of men who would be required by tradition to visit their patrons daily, to collect any monetary aid they might need and to do errands and jobs in return. And when one visited one's patron, one wore a toga! In the aristocratic classes, there was even more opportunity for toga-wearing (law courts, formal visits, etc.), and the younger men would also be doing military training in the Field of Mars in anticipation of their service in the army (as equites or tribunes, most likely). 
 
On the other hand, there is a quote from Cicero, I believe, which says that in some parts of Italy a man only wears a toga to his own funeral. Augustus had to pass a law requiring citizens to wear togas while doing business in the Forum Romanum. 
 
As you get into the Empire, of course, the whole military system changes. Poor and landless men fill the ranks. Personally, I don't think most legionaries had much use for a toga, and in fact we don't see them wearing togas in the relief of Titus' victory parade. Doesn't mean they never owned one before enlisting, of course, but it's hard to say either way. 
 
But then you get Tacitus, who says that citizenship is spreading through the Empire, and the toga is everywhere to be seen. He and Cicero could both be right--toga-wearing is ho-hum back in Rome, since everyone has the darn things, but all those excited new citizens out on the frontier are eager to flaunt their status. 
 
Fascinating questions! Valete, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

**richsc** · 06-15-2004, 05:20 PM

Wasn't there a thread a while back that referred to the military contract of 5000 togas for some legion? That would be more than the centurions and tribunes could use; does it not imply that for some ceremonial reason all citizens would need to wear a toga? Legio XX 
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo

06-16-2004, 04:42 AM

Hi Rich, 
 
I think it was actually 5000 tunics, and I recall that that thread was also talking about legionaries using worn out tunics as raw material for their subarmalises (subarmali? ) 
 
anyway, best regards, 
 
Gaius Marius Aquilus

06-16-2004, 03:29 PM

Avete Omnes! 
 
Funny how this old thread surfaced again. Matt, you did a very nice job of encapsulating toga customs. I would only add to Mithras' question about citizen ranks; TogÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¦ really didn't designated rank per se: a prÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¦texta strip denoted some higher elected offices. The clavica stripe on the tunic denoted patrician (wide) and equestrian (thin) and both of these were clearly the old blood, moneyed upper ranks of citizenship. 
One further note was that togas were never really everyday wear, but bounded by laws and custom, which as Matt said could vary over time and style of toga. To go out in public in a non-official manner, Romans threw on a Greek wrap (himation) which they called a pallium. It was both lighter, more comfortable and more flexible than a toga and had fewer restrictions. 
I remember the 5000 toga threads a having to do with a contract for legions serving in Greece, and a donation of citizens for tunics and togas for the survivors of CannÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¦ (both references drawn from Livy, if i remember). 
 
Greeting all! 
 
Wade Heaton 
[email protected] 
www.togaman.com

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