bow shooting while wearing armor.

[hoplite14gr]

A first hand experience.

http://velopeia.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/d...ombat.html

Kind regards

[Dan Howard]

I have couple of questions:

The first is this sentence: "It is a historical fact that Spartans - the elite warriors of the classical period - used armour comprised of 'aigis', which is leather."

When did "aigis" become synonymous with "leather armour"? Homer uses the word aigis 15 times and, as far as I can tell, it is either a magical goatskin or a tasselled shield. If we had evidence of Spartans wearing leather armour then all of those discussions we've had on RAT about whether classical Greeks wore leather or linen would have been a lot shorter.

The second is about the leather itself. It seems to me to be too thin to be any use as armour. Was it tested against an arrow or spear thrust? If it can't stop those weapons then it isn't much use as armour. Is the author suggesting that only the shoulders and left side was covered by armour (i.e. metal scales) while the chest, back, and right side were unprotected?

"On the crater it is not clear what kind of material his thorax is made of but we thought that leather would be lighter than the 15 layers of linen"

Of course it would be lighter. The layered linen is functional armour while the leather is not. If you want to use leather that is only 5mm thick then it needs to be hardened into cuirbouilli. If not then it has to be thicker. That's why leather armour usually consisted of scales. The construction presents multiple layers of leather to a weapon point while still retaining a degree of flexibility.

[Agonis]

I do not try to reply on behalf of the Author, but I have examined closely this armor and I have personally tested it. I only mention my personal opinion.

This is definitely an armor system,consisting of 6 kilos of leather and 2 kilos of copper scales (placed on shoulders and left side). Of course a single layer of leather alone does not provide much protection against spear, sword/knife or heavy arrowheads hits. It can only protect against surface hits, natural elements (eg spines) or light arrowheads shot from long distance - we have made tests on this, single layer of hardened leather can stop light Scythian-type warheads from medium distances

Armor protection is provided only by metal scales. Or by additional linen armor that the warrior may wear bellow the leather....

I refer to this construction as an armor system, where the leather act as carrier of the armor (scales) - with direct analogy to modern plate carriers that the warrior can choose the number and placement or armor plates and/or additional soft armor, according to the specific mission requirements

I do not believe that a heavy-quilted linen armor would be lighter or heavier... in my personal opinion use of leather has to do with the availability of materials and specific environment parameters. For example, our experience has shown that quilted-linen armor does not fit with operations on sea-environment... humidity will degrade the linen material very fast


Adonis

[Dan Howard]

we have made tests on this, single layer of hardened leather can stop light Scythian-type warheads from medium distances

But, according to the article, the leather wasn't hardened. I've already conceded that 5mm of hardened leather can make a useful armour - not as effective as 15 layers of linen but handy against light arrows.

I refer to this construction as an armor system, where the leather act as carrier of the armor (scales) - with direct analogy to modern plate carriers that the warrior can choose the number and placement or armor plates and/or additional soft armor, according to the specific mission requirements.

Do we have any evidence that hoplite armour only covered the left side, leaving the rest of the torso unprotected? I can imagine an archer using this configuration but not infantry with spear and shield.

I do not believe that a heavy-quilted linen armor would be lighter or heavier... in my personal opinion use of leather has to do with the availability of materials and specific environment parameters. For example, our experience has shown that quilted-linen armor does not fit with operations on sea-environment... humidity will degrade the linen material very fast

Of course leather and linen can both be used as armour. But in order to make leather provide a similar level of protection as layered linen, it has to be heavier than the linen equivalent. The decision to choose leather because it would be lighter is wrong. The article is comparing 15 layers of linen, which is proper functional armour, with a flexible layer of leather, which is not. 4-6 layers of linen would be a better comparison since this is what was used as a backing for scale armour.

According to Williams (The Knight and the Blast Furnace, p. 943) it takes 90J for a blade to cut through 5mm of hardened leather. It takes 140J for the same blade to cut through 16 layers of linen. It took 30J for a lance head to punch through the cuirbouilli and 50J for the lance to punch through 16 layers of linen. If you want a comparison with metal armour, it took 140J for the lance head to punch through mail.

[Agonis]

I think we are confused with details and we miss the real value of the article...

The idea behind this reconstruction was to built a medium-low weight armor for Archers, as close to (what we consider as) original as possible, with flexibility and speed in mind. Partially covered with metal scales on shoulders and torso, as depicted by various paintings

Placing armor (scales) on the left torso is personal preference of the Warrior (Aristodimos), as in antiquity armor were (usually) built to fit the specific need of the owner - yes to cover the needs of an Archer, not a Phalanx Hoplite

The basic target of the experiment was to wear this armor continuously for many days, during a demanding Archery Festival, under hot conditions and report functionality, integration with the weapon system, psychological and other aspects



Regarding the debate on materials used, there are myriad parameters on the treatment and the environment to consider. I accept the Williams tests, but they are only an indication and specific to the samples and testing processes. Natural materials (like linen and leather) cannot have consistent behavior in tests and various treatment may lead to different results... these tests can only be used as a high level guidance

[Dan Howard]

The idea behind this reconstruction was to built a medium-low weight armor for Archers, as close to (what we consider as) original as possible, with flexibility and speed in mind. Partially covered with metal scales on shoulders and torso, as depicted by various paintings

Placing armor (scales) on the left torso is personal preference of the Warrior (Aristodimos), as in antiquity armor were (usually) built to fit the specific need of the owner - yes to cover the needs of an Archer, not a Phalanx Hoplite.

Agreed completely. This armour selection for an archer seems perfectly reasonable.

The basic target of the experiment was to wear this armor continuously for many days, during a demanding Archery Festival, under hot conditions and report functionality, integration with the weapon system, psychological and other aspects

Which it has done admirably. The article would have been better served by sticking to the subject and not confusing the reader with "historical facts" that are nothing of the sort.

Regarding the debate on materials used, there are myriad parameters on the treatment and the environment to consider. I accept the Williams tests, but they are only an indication and specific to the samples and testing processes. Natural materials (like linen and leather) cannot have consistent behavior in tests and various treatment may lead to different results... these tests can only be used as a high level guidance

Agreed. But until someone else performs tests that are equally rigorous and produces different results, this is what we have to go with.