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Thespian Hoplites and black armour
#1
Whilst I appreciate that the black armoured hoplites is probably a load of old tosh, is there any evidence for black armour and linothorax? If so how was it done?
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
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#2
All iron armour is black when it comes off the forge. It is pretty rust resistant in this condition too.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#3
Forgive my ignorance (im a Roman) did Greeks use Iron armour
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
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#4
Iron that has been heated very hot at all will turn black because some of the carbon molecules are driven to the surface. Copper alloys will have more copper on the surface for the same reason. It's possible to get soot (carbon) on the surface of copper alloys, but it doesn't stick with the tenacity of carbon on iron/steel.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#5
I agree with ben. It could have been possible to have the blackend armour apperance. But i will have to research into if they would have had the capabilities to work with iron in general. And as a referance point, are you refering to the movie troy with the mirmadons under brad pitts command?

Now as for a suit of linothorax i would base an asumption as to dye or paints of choice for the city-state. Be it blue white red excetera.
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#6
I believe Aulus is referring to the black clad Thespian depiction that led to so many people believing that Thespians wore black into battle. Simply put, there is no evidence that Thespian hoplites wore black, at least not black chitons and cloaks, and certainly not because "they wore black because they knew they would not return", that's utter nonsense. As for black armour, or more specifically, a black linothorax/Type 4/Spolas/composite curaiss, or whatever we're calling it these days, this can be confirmed in the monumental record, whether black leather, or painted/dyed linen, I couldn't say but I suppose either was possible. Confusedmile:
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#7
Black paint can be made by mixing linseed oil with soot. It can be applied to metal. A more durable and glossy finish can be had by coating the armour in multiple layers of linseed oil and baking in an oven. Jeff Hildebrandt has used this technique on this Anglo-Saxon shield boss
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=28840

It looks very cool but I can't think of anything to suggest that classical Greeks ever wore blackened armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#8
It is possible to paint your T&Y/Type 4/spolos
I have no idea regards Thespians> :-(
also
YES to using iron as armour but only extant evidence is the so called Philip of MacedonT&Y armour and helmet
and a musculata that currently resides in (i think) Crete.
ie Hellenistic period
The only other that I know of is not so much Greek but Anatolian(?) iron helmet and built very much like a 4century ace segmented helmet-this one is dated to 5th century bce.
regards
richard
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#9
Thanks folks, your replies are much appreciated
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
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#10
We have extant Persian scales dating to the right time period made of iron. Some are even plated in gold just like Herodotus' description of Masistius' armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#11
This depiction of a "Thespian Hoplite" which I think was drawn for an old Osprey book, is the one thats been floating around the interwebs for some time now. It seems to have been accompanied by a descriptive text reading something like 'Thespian hoplite, dressed in black because he knows he will not return from battle' thats not an exact quote, but gets the point across. The black shoulder yoke of the curaiss can be confirmed in the monumental record and that black armour, both metallic and composite was possible,is not in question as per the various comments above. As for the Thespians wearing all black, that is pure speculation and not supported by any evidence whatsoever.


[attachment=8209]ThespianHoplite.jpg[/attachment]


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Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#12
Quote:We have extant Persian scales dating to the right time period made of iron. Some are even plated in gold just like Herodotus' description of Masistius' armour.

We also have the Prodromi and Vergina tomb cuirasses, which are Iron and date to the 4th century BC. The Prodromi is a muscle cuirass.
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#13
Quote:The black shoulder yoke of the curaiss can be confirmed in the monumental record and that black armour, both metallic and composite was possible,is not in question as per the various comments above.

It IS in question... at least until we find an actual physical specimen. I'm not sure any iron armor was as "black" as depicted in that rather fanciful drawing. I also doubt the Greeks, or anyone else, wore blackened armor as it came directly from the forge. It would have been scoured and polished to some degree, thus removing the sooty black carbonization. Purely black anything appears to be lacking in the archaeological strata for any given period until we get to the high medieval period, when armor was blackened. Even the Chinese, who had the technology to blue, purple, and blacken, even chromium-plate, their bronze swords, do not seem to have had the ability to do the same with iron/steel. :wink:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
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Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#14
Quote:
Dithyrambus post=345564 Wrote:The black shoulder yoke of the curaiss can be confirmed in the monumental record and that black armour, both metallic and composite was possible,is not in question as per the various comments above.

It IS in question... at least until we find an actual physical specimen. I'm not sure any iron armor was as "black" as depicted in that rather fanciful drawing. I also doubt the Greeks, or anyone else, wore blackened armor as it came directly from the forge. It would have been scoured and polished to some degree, thus removing the sooty black carbonization. Purely black anything appears to be lacking in the archaeological strata for any given period until we get to the high medieval period, when armor was blackened. Even the Chinese, who had the technology to blue, purple, and blacken, even chromium-plate, their bronze swords, do not seem to have had the ability to do the same with iron/steel. :wink:

Thats not iron armour, its the shoulder yoke of a tube & yoke curaiss, which is verifiable in the pottery paintings, there are depictions of linen/leather armours that have sections such as the shoulder yokes or the pteryges depicted in black. :-)

Otherwise, its a fanciful drawing that has done more harm than good.. :wink:
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#15
Several depictions of 'black face' Corinthians to be found in the pottery record, painted helmets and armour are not unknown and the paint would not have survived the centuries. You will also notice the black shoulder yokes of the curaiss..




[attachment=8221]ScaledHelmets2_2013-10-21.jpg[/attachment]


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_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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