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Thespian Hoplites and black armour
#16
How can anyone possibly interpret that as black armour? It is a monochrome illustration.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#17
Hm, that is a valid question. I have been assured by experienced researchers that black dyes and paint were available in period and why would an artist depict a black faced Corinthian, not only this particular vase but several others, if he had never seen one? As for the thorax, this is not the only depiction of a black tube & yoke, at least sections of the armour, there are various images much like the one above and there are also depictions of black ptyreges, I understand the monochrome nature of the vase paintings, but clearly not all tube & yoke armours were plain white.
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#18
I think its more likely the pottery is depicting a contrast between a lighter dyed part of the spola/linothroax and a darker part. Possibly the tube is a linothorax and they doubler is made of leather.
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#19
Quote:I think its more likely the pottery is depicting a contrast between a lighter dyed part of the spola/linothroax and a darker part. Possibly the tube is a linothorax and they doubler is made of leather.

That too is possible, this is the primary reason that I dislike the term "linothorax" as it implies an armour made solely of linen, perhaps some were, but there can be little doubt that leather was also used and we do occasionally see metallic scales, I wish the community would adopt the term "Type 4" as an all encompassing term for the tube & yoke armour (tube & yoke also works but some people don't like the term) "composite armour" is an acceptable term for an armour which is obviously made of various materials, such as scaled armours, but this term is also limiting as it refers specifically to armours made of varying materials, and nobody can say with any certainty exactly what "spolas" refers to in the literary record, so an all inclusive term such as "Type 4" would seem the most desirable, at least in my humble opinion.

As for colors, yes these depictions merely differentiate one section of the armour from another and I certainly accept that it doesn't necessarily depict black armour. I think the easy answer to the question: Was black armour possible? Is, yes it was possible with the use of black dye and paint. Can we prove that the Thespians, or anyone else for that matter, painted their armour black? No..
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#20
Quote:Why would an artist depict a black faced Corinthian, not only this particular vase but several others, if he had never seen one?
Obviously because that was the only colour available to the artist on that particular medium. It is a monochrome illustration - the only intention is to differentiate different parts of the drawing. It is unreasonable to pretend that we know what colours the various items on those drawings are.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#21
Quote:
Dithyrambus post=345639 Wrote:Why would an artist depict a black faced Corinthian, not only this particular vase but several others, if he had never seen one?
Obviously because that was the only colour available to the artist on that particular medium. It is a monochrome illustration - the only intention is to differentiate different parts of the drawing. It is unreasonable to pretend that we know what colours the various items on those drawings are.

Hm, I thought I had made it clear that I agreed with you, no we cannot know the true intent of the artist, but we also cannot rule out black as the intended color and black paints and dyes were available. :-)

In my last post, I wrote:

"As for colors, yes these depictions merely differentiate one section of the armour from another and I certainly accept that it doesn't necessarily depict black armour. I think the easy answer to the question: Was black armour possible? Is, yes it was possible with the use of black dye and paint. Can we prove that the Thespians, or anyone else for that matter, painted their armour black? No.."
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#22
A few years ago at a metal conservation conference I saw a presentation about the surface treatments of several corinthian helmets found in Italy. I remember that one of these helmets had been silvered, another helmet had been painted with black paint. So there is pretty concrete proof for this practice. If one day I'll be able to finish renovating my house and unpack the boxes I will be able to give the actual find information.

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Jef
Jef Pinceel
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Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
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