Frankish seaxes

[ROMan]

My latest "Weapon Wednesday" post is a blog about some Frankish seaxes at the ROM. I would be interested in any feedback on the matter. I was hoping to finish some drawings of the things done before today, but I may add that later.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Cool stuff. Don't forget the Pouan seax, which although owned by a Burgundian or Goth was in the Frankish Gold-Hilt style and probably of Frankish origin.

[ROMan]

Cool stuff. Don't forget the Pouan seax, which although owned by a Burgundian or Goth was in the Frankish Gold-Hilt style and probably of Frankish origin.

Yes, it would be a nice thing to refer to, but I couldn't find an on-line reference. They tend to give me grief if i tell people to go to a book!

[Medicus matt]

Just a couple of points.
In Old Frankish these knives were called 'saks'. Seax is the Old English word.
'Sword' is not an Old English word. 'Sweord' is the Old English word (derived ultimately, like "saks/seax "from a PIE word for 'cut').

[Robert]

Hi Robert, thank you for sharing!! These examples do certainly prove the earlier discussion on the broken back being absent in the smaller seax, contrary to popular belief and many faulty "reconstructions", based on phantasy, not fact. Only one (very) small seax has that feature, the broken back does not show up untill the seax had evolved into a large single edged sword.

[ROMan]

Just a couple of points.
In Old Frankish these knives were called 'saks'. Seax is the Old English word.
'Sword' is not an Old English word. 'Sweord' is the Old English word (derived ultimately, like "saks/seax "from a PIE word for 'cut').

Thanks for this. I would say from the literature that "seax" is the term used in modern English to refer to this class of object. In Old English it could be seax, saex, sax, sex, etc. Sax is used in the OED, but many writers presumably wish to avoid confusing their readers with saxophones.

However, you are quite right that I say "sword" is an OE word, when it is actually derived from one. I should correct that. From my reading seax, cognate with saw, is derived from another term in the Germanic family which means to cut, while sword is derived from a PIE word for "cut", with possibly associations with cutting people. But I am not actually an authority on ancient Indo-European languages and the precise meanings of terms in them, so I didn't want to go into that too deeply. The etymology of seax seemed a more appropriate thing to discuss since it seems clearer and also seemed appropriate since that was what I was talking about.

[ROMan]

Hi Robert, thank you for sharing!! These examples do certainly prove the earlier discussion on the broken back being absent in the smaller seax, contrary to popular belief and many faulty "reconstructions", based on phantasy, not fact. Only one (very) small seax has that feature, the broken back does not show up untill the seax had evolved into a large single edged sword.

I'll finish the drawings of some of them, and some more detailed photographs (the engraved lines are informative), when I have time, and add them to the blog. I wanted to have the data available for people that might want to reconstruct them for re-enactment or experimental archaeology purposes. It would be interesting, for instance, to have one made and try out some of the großes Messer moves from the mediaeval Fechtbücher.

[Robert]

The Grosses Messer differ very much, as they have a pary guard and that changes the whole story. These are big slashers!

[ROMan]

The Grosses Messer differ very much, as they have a pary guard and that changes the whole story. These are big slashers!

Nice shivs! Certainly some of the grosse messer are monstrous huge, and some of the moves rely on the quillons, but others don't and I could see them being used with some of the larger seaxes. I think my main objective in this comment in the blog was to say that big knives are not to be underestimated! Apart from the occasional peasant army, all ancient warriors were martial artists, trained to use their equipment to the fullest of their application. There would have been styles of fighting developed by the seax user that would have made this relatively common weapon very effective.

[Robert]

Oh yes, indeed! Certainly some of the moves could be used. But another analogy may be the big Bowieknives and the style used fighting with these. The nice thing about single edged knives this large is that the underarm can be used to provide extra power in the strike if the knife is rotated in the hand point down, edge forward. These were very nasty weapons, up close and personal, with enough weight in the blade to disembowl someone. Even the peasant could be versed in their use, as it was both a status symbol and a good way of extracting oneself from a tavern brawl.

There is no scale in the picture, but the upper one (slight droppoint) has a total length of 47 cm, blade is 30 cm. At 17 cm, that makes the handle one-and-a-half hand, like the Grosses Messer. The LaTene ones from Port have an equally long blade, but the handle dimensions are known. I have made Jef a reproduction of langsax, that one had a 55 cm blade, similar to the Germanic single edged swords.

[ROMan]

Oh yes, indeed! Certainly some of the moves could be used. But another analogy may be the big Bowieknives and the style used fighting with these. The nice thing about single edged knives this large is that the underarm can be used to provide extra power in the strike if the knife is rotated in the hand point down, edge forward. These were very nasty weapons, up close and personal, with enough weight in the blade to disembowl someone. Even the peasant could be versed in their use, as it was both a status symbol and a good way of extracting oneself from a tavern brawl.

There is no scale in the picture, but the upper one (slight droppoint) has a total length of 47 cm, blade is 30 cm. At 17 cm, that makes the handle one-and-a-half hand, like the Grosses Messer. The LaTene ones from Port have an equally long blade, but the handle dimensions are known. I have made Jef a reproduction of langsax, that one had a 55 cm blade, similar to the Germanic single edged swords.

I've only seen small-Bowie knife fighting which looks related to Spanish Navaja style fighting, but I know that in the 19th century they were whoppers. I was actually unfamiliar with the La Tene knives (I can't know everything!) of the type you showed, so that was very interesting, as one of our Mainz objects has exactly that grip. I didn't include it in the blog because it was obviously not one of the Frankish weapons!

[Robert]

It is a gripstyle also found on the Vimose Germanic single edged swords. The little lift at the back is a feature sometimes seen in the tang, but not on this one, as the metal is almost fully enclosed in the wooden handle.

[Agraes]

Cool stuff. Don't forget the Pouan seax, which although owned by a Burgundian or Goth was in the Frankish Gold-Hilt style and probably of Frankish origin.

The "gold-hilt style" wasn't frankish but an eastern style passed to the Franks and other federates by the eastern Romans along other fashions such as spangenhelmes. There has been comparisons between the Pouan and Tournai finds and more eastern ones.

See:
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/pre...m_3_1_1528

http://www.academia.edu/2183609/M._Kazan...p._203-209

http://www.academia.edu/2071871/M._Kazan...5_287-_298

http://www.academia.edu/1930553/Perin_P....7_p._29-38

[ROMan]

Here are the images of the "odd" seax.
[attachment=8256]909.15.105_1_2013GRstaff.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=8257]909.15.105_3_2013GRstaff.jpg[/attachment]

[Robert]

Wow, interesting object! If I were asked to identify it, my first reaction would be a single edged sword of an earlier date then the Frankish seax. It shows a number of characteristics I have seen in those swords. Does make me wonder about the provenance, where did it come from and why is it dubbed a seax? The back of the blade (width) could be an indication of its original length, as to balance a blade, the distal taper of the back would start at 1/3 (max) to 1/2 (more likely) of the blade measured from the hilt. The tang seems to have been almost fully enclosed in a wooden hilt, notice how thin it is at the back. The inside of the grip would have the metal of the tang exposed, you can see how a flange has been forged. This is consistent with the Germanic style blades I have seem images of. Would love to do a reconstuction on that piece :-).