Lets Talk Adrianople

[ValentinianVictrix]

I will continue to call him Athanaricus because that is what I believe he called himself once he crossed the Danube and went to live at Constantiople at the invitation of Theodosius. It was common practice for 'barbarian' Chieftains, Kings and Princes to change their names so that they sounded more 'Roman', Vadomarius, a King of the Alamanni did exactly that when entering Roman service for example.

I will also continue to believe that Athanaricus was initially a Greuthingi Iudex rather than a Tervingi one. Ammianus may actually have seen Athanaricus before that Iudex died. Ammianus will have been able to question those who knew Athanaricus whilst he was at Constantinople and also before he crossed the Danube. He was writing contemporary with the events of the surviving books of his history and unlike Jordanes he witnessed many of the events that occured.

The career of Athanaricus was certainly a checkered one. He was an Iudex of the Greuthingi Goths but after the defeat at the hands of Valens in 369 he was forced to accept a new treaty which had much less generous conditions attached to it. He was then probably ousted as a Greuthingi Iudex and it looks like he then sought refuge with the Tervingi. He led an anti-Christian faction that persecuted fellow Gothic Christians. A power struggle then ensued between Athanaricus and another Chieftain called Fritigern. Whilst initially Athanaricus had the upper hand, Athanaricus was yet again defeated when Valens sent the Army of Thrace over the Danube to support Fritigern. Athanaricus then fled with those who remained loyal to him to the Carpathian mountains where he then had to face constant Hunnic attacks. He tried to restore the old Roman field wall in Dacia called the Limes Transalutanus but was thwarted by a Hunnic assault and he was only able to escape to the mountains because the Huns were too laden down with plunder to pursue him. Many of his followers then left him at this point and moved southwards towards the Danube, following the example of Fritigern and the other Gothic chieftains. Athanaricus then moved down to the Danube where Valens refused him entry and he was forced back to mountains again. Once Valens was dead Theodosius agreed to his crossing of the Danube and he was treated as a honoured guest at Constantinople for the rest of his life there.

[Robert Vermaat]

Once Valens was dead Theodosius agreed to his crossing of the Danube and he was treated as a honoured guest at Constantinople for the rest of his life there.

Figures! I bet Theodosius used him to counter-balance Alaric or other Gothic groups.

[ValentinianVictrix]

I forgot to add that Athanaricus should be surnamed 'Oathbreaker'. In 369AD the treaty that was signed between Valens and Athanaricus was signed on a boat in the middle of the Danube. This was because Athanaricus declared that he had taken an oath before his father never to cross into Roman territory. yet in 376 where did we find him? Yep, on the banks of the Danube asking Valens for permission to cross! No wonder he was sent packing! Just a short while after Adrianople Athanaricus made an appeal directly to Theodosius who invited him and his tribesmen to cross over.
Athanaricus appears to have forgotten the solumn oath he had taken.

[Alanus]

Once Valens was dead Theodosius agreed to his crossing of the Danube and he was treated as a honoured guest at Constantinople for the rest of his life there.

Figures! I bet Theodosius used him to counter-balance Alaric or other Gothic groups.

Unfortunately for Theodosius' well-planned events, Athanaric died within a fortnight after reaching Constantinople. His entrance reception was on January 11, 381, and he died rather mysteriously on January 25th, 381. If Ammianus interviewed him, he had 14 days to accomplish it. All Theodosius could do was give Athanaric a splendid funeral. 8-)

Adrian mentioned Theodosius "invited him and his tribesmen over." Athanaric had no tribesmen. They abandoned him. Perhaps he had a few loyal followers, like immediate relatives, but this character of poor character had run out of pagan gods to help him. Let's not speculate like Alessandro Barbero :dizzy:

ALSO-- if Athanaric changed his name after crossing the Ister, he had an incredibly short time to use it. He was called "Athanaricus" by Roman authors who habitually Romanized barbarian names, and I doubt he had the wherewithal to add the "us" himself.

As for Athanaric ever being a Greutungus?-- it's an impossibility. The Tyrfingi were ruled by the Balths, while the Greutungi were under the Amals. There were no kingly exchanges between the two groups or families. Wolfram called Athanaric a "Tervingian judge," Heather and Matthews used "iudex of Tervingi," and I've referred to him as a "Tyrfingi magistrate," all the same position and tribe.

Let us return to facts. The latter posts dealing with Athanaric on this thread are increasingly conjectural as historicity becomes a casualty. :whistle:

Thank you, please

[Robert Vermaat]

Let's return to facts? I wasn't aware of any glaring mistakes in that quote?

As to the 'tribesmen', I'm not sure of the original word, but any Goth accompanied by a bunch of barbarians was acoompanied by his tribesman according to any Roman.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

The Tervingi were ruled by the Balti, but the Grethungi were NOT ruled by the Amals. The Grethungi were not Ostrogoths, the groups that would go on to form the Ostrogoths remained in the Carpathians and would come under Hunnic Domination.

Valamir was probably the first king of the Amali dynasty. But Ancient authors wanted to tie it back to their origins for prestige purposes of course, and Jordanes garbles everything he touches.

You are probably right in that he was an Iudex, which seems to have been the same rank as the Optimates under Chnondomarius. He ruled other Cantons but was ruled himself.

[Alanus]

Figures! I bet Theodosius used him to counter-balance Alaric or other Gothic groups.

I was simply pointing out that Athanaric was extremely dead, not just partially-dead or mostly-dead, by the time Alaric emerges in the historical continuum-- an entire decade later! :woot:

to Evan,
The Greutungi have been described as, "people of the pebbled shores." There are no pebbled shores in the Danube delta. But there are pebbled shores in Ukraine and the Crimea, where I have walked across beaches that exemplify the geology. Once you get beyond the legendary material in Jordanes, he becomes fairly accurate; he was a Goth and knew his history. He was paraphrasing the ms of Cassiodorus, who lived in the Ostrogothic court. Certainly, he has had his critics, especially Kulikowski... who took him to task for claiming Ermaneric controlled lands east to the Samara. Then-- by some strange coincidence-- an ancient Gothic "villa"-syled site was found on the west bank of the Samara. I differentiate the Tyrfingi as living up to the Prut or even further. Athanaric built his anti-Hunnic fort on the west bank of the Dniester at the border of Moldova and Ukraine, the dividing line between the Tyrfingi and Greutungi.

Who were all the "tribesmen" who accompanied Athanaric across the Danube in 381? Wolfram seems to be on top of it with this statement, "His own people, possibly his relatives (proximi), had driven the former Gothic judge out of the Caucaland in late 380." The timeframe between "late 380" and January 381, appears to be exceedingly short for Athanaric to rebuild a following. In view of him even losing his immediate relatives, I was kinder to him than Wolfram.

If we set aside the legendary Amals, we find this family in the historical period with the succession of Ermaneric, Vithimiris, and then Videric, the boy-king last mentioned in 376. I find nothing to prove the Amals were not a ruling clan of the Greutungi within the same period when the Tyrfingi were under the Balths. There was even a third ruling family, the Arimir Goths, which was still living north of the Ister in the 380s and '90s. This is evident within the Church record of Queen Gaatha and her martyrology. mile:

I am leery of Kulikowski, who has chosen to accept some historical facts while dismissing others, much like a junior editor in a mainstream publishing firm. Not exactly open methodology. He is also snide and overbearing, something you'll not find in Wolfram, Heather, and Matthews. ;-)

[Flavivs Aetivs]

The Amals couldn't have been a ruling class in the Grethungi because the Grethungi went on to form the Visigoths. Jordanes' link between the Grethungic "kings" and Valamir is entirely fictional. The Grethungi had some form of ruling Dynasty, but it wasn't the Amals.

I know my geography, and I know the Grethungi were living above the Crimea in 376. The Tervingi probably lived in the Carpathians or Wallachian plain.

Heather suggests that the two lines the Goths retreated to were near the Tyras (Dniester) and that was the Grethungi's fort, while the Tervingi's wall was further south at the Transalutanian wall in Wallachia, which actually bordered Iazyges land.

[Alanus]

Evan,

I don't see where our views are that far apart. The geographical areas of the Tyrfingi and Greutungi you describe are the same as I've mentioned. Nothing that I've posted refered to the "Ostrogoths" or "Visigoths." These are later entities that do no follow, in any way, the Balth and Amal families beyond modern "reconstructions." I'm talking about the period within the scope of this thread, the events that led up to Adrianople. We cannot connect the Greutungi solely with later Visigoths, especially since they may have had Tyrfingi elements, aka the Balths. This is all modern speculation. I'm concerned with Fritigern, Alaviv, and Athanaric, the major players in events leading to this discussion.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I know that, I'm just saying you can't connect the Grethungi with the Amali Goths.

[Alanus]

Magister Militum Flavius Aetius said:

You can't connect the Greuthungi with the Amali Goths.

Why can't I? If I happen to trust the "core" of Jordanes/Cassiodorus and also the deductions of Wolfram, then the Amals included that part of the family from Ermaneric to Videric, the last mentioned crossing the Ister under the safe-keeping of Alatheus, his Greutungus guardian. Where is there a break in this early Greutuni link? mile:

Any suppositions as to who were Theodoric's ancestors are irrelevant, whether factual or not, and whether Greutungi or not. Everything strictly historical stops with Videric.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

It appears that at the death of their king, Hermanaric, they were made a separate people by the departure of the Visigoths, and remained in their country subject to the sway of the Huns; yet Vinitharius of the Amali retained the insignia of his rule. (247) He rivalled the valor of his grandfather Vultuulf, although he had not the good fortune of Hermanaric. But disliking to remain under the rule of the Huns, he withdrew a little from them and strove to show his courage by moving his forces against the country of the Antes. When he attacked them, he was beaten in the first encounter. Thereafter he did valiantly and, as a terrible example, crucified their king, named Boz, together with his sons and seventy nobles, and left their bodies hanging there to double the fear of those who had surrendered. (248) When he had ruled with such license for barely a year, Balamber, king of the Huns, would no longer endure it, but sent for Gesimund, son of Hunimund the Great. Now Gesimund, together with a great part of the Goths, remained under the rule of the Huns, being mindful of his oath of fidelity. Balamber renewed his alliance with him and led his army up against Vinitharius. After a long contest, Vinitharius prevailed in the first and in the second conflict, nor can any say how great a slaughter he made of the army of the Huns. (249) But in the third battle, when they met each other unexpectedly at the river named Erac, Balamber shot an arrow and wounded Vinitharius in the head, so that he died. Then Balamber took to himself in marriage Vadamerca, the grand-daughter of Vinitharius, and finally ruled all the people of the Goths as his peaceful subjects, but in such a way that one ruler of their own number always held the power over the Gothic race, though subject to the Huns.

(250) And later, after the death of Vinitharius, Hunimund ruled them, the son of Hermanaric, a mighty king of yore; a man fierce in war and of famous personal beauty, who afterwards fought successfully against the race of the Suavi. And when he died, his son Thorismud succeeded him, in the very bloom of youth. In the second year of his rule he moved an army against the Gepidae and won a great victory over them, but is said to have been killed by falling from his horse. (251) When he was dead, the Ostrogoths mourned for him so deeply that for forty years no other king succeeded in his place, and during all this time they had ever on their lips the tale of his memory. Now as time went on, Valamir grew to man's estate. He was the son of Thorismud's cousin Vandalarius. For his son Beremud, as we have said before, at last grew to despise the race of the Ostrogoths because of the overlordship of the Huns, and so had followed the tribe of the Visigoths to the western country, and it was from him Veteric was descended. Veteric also had a son Eutharic, who married Amalasuentha, the daughter of Theodoric, thus uniting again the stock of the Amali which had divided long ago. Eutharic begat Athalaric and Mathesuentha. But since Athalaric died in the years of his boyhood, Mathesuentha was taken to Constantinople by her second husband, namely Germanus, a cousin of the Emperor Justinian, and bore a posthumous son, whom she named Germanus.

(252) But that the order we have taken for our history may run its due course, we must return to the stock of Vandalarius, which put forth three branches. This Vandalarius, the son of a brother of Hermanaric and cousin of the aforesaid Thorismud, vaunted himself among the race of the Amali because he had begotten three sons, Valamir, Thiudimer and Vidimer. Of these Valamir ascended the throne after his parents, though the Huns as yet held the power over the Goths in general as among other nations. (253) It was pleasant to behold the concord of these three brothers; for the admirable Thiudimer served as a soldier for the empire of his brother Valamir, and Valamir bade honors be given him, while Vidimer was eager to serve them both. Thus regarding one another with common affection, not one was wholly deprived of the kingdom which two of them held in mutual peace. Yet, as has often been said, they ruled in such a way that they respected the dominion of Attila, king or the Huns. Indeed they could not have refused to fight against their kinsmen the Visigoths, and they must even have committed parricide at their lord's command. There was no way whereby any Scythian tribe could have been wrested from the power of the Huns, save by the death of Attila,--an event the Romans and all other nations desired. Now his death was as base as his life was marvellous.

Jordanes makes the claim that the Ostrogoths and Grethungi were the same, but they weren't. The Amals were a group of Carpathian Goths that got pushed into the Pannonian Basin by the Huns some time around 430 or later, while the Grethungi had long ago crossed the Danube with the Tervingi and gone on to form the Vesigetae.

[Michael Kerr]

I understand that the term Ostrogoths & Visigoths came about much later and I find myself confused with the terms Greuthungi & Thervingi & their connections so I am on slippery ground here but in regard to the Amali clan, Hyun Jin Kim in his book mentions possible Alanic/Sarmatian/Gothic origins for the Amal clan. Intermarriages between the Goths and Alans who inhabited the Ukraine especially among the elite were widespread and took place between the two groups. Prominent Gothic and Alanic figures in 4th and 5th centuries AD were most often of mixed Alan-Gothic heritage. These Goths were so thoroughly Sarmatianized that Procopius would later argue that they were in fact separate from the Germanic peoples. Kim writes of the Amals.

So many East Gothic noble clans were in all probability of Alan or Sarmatian mixed origin and that the famous clan name Amal was possibly of Iranian origin from the Avestic ama meaning 'powerful, strong' which is also the name of a Mithra deity.

The later royal dynasty of the Amals showed all the features of a typical steppe people: mounted warfare, hunting, falconry, shamanism & the wearing of Iranian-Central Asian royal vestments.

So Jordanes although like Evan said garbles on about the mythic origins of the Amals there may have been some substance in possible Alan connections to the mythical ancestors of the Amal dynasty. Jordanes father was supposedly an Alan and he was secretary to the nephew of Candac who by the name seems to be Alanic. He makes no mention about the Amals being related to Ermaneric just on possible Alanic connections so I will stay clear of that one. Thats about it for my contribution to discussion.

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Kandak is a Hunnic name AFAIK.

The Grethungi and Tervingi both crossed the rhine in 376: The Tervingi were welcome, the Grethungi were not. Both combined and became the Goths of Alaric. the Goths of Alaric took in the Goths of Radagasius and a number of Roman Deserters and became the Goths of Aquitania. At some point after the death of Aetius, they began to be known as the Vesigetae.

[Alanus]

Jordanes makes the claim that the Ostrogoths and Grethungi were the same, but they weren't. The Amals were a group of Carpathian Goths that got pushed into the Pannonian Basin by the Huns some time around 430 or later, while the Grethungi had long ago crossed the Danube with the Tervingi and gone on to form the Vesigetae.

What are we arguing about? I never said the Ostrogoths were the same as the Greutungi; nor did I ever mention the Ostrogoths in any post. I have not consulted the Origo Gothica anywhere in this thread. As you say, the Amals were pushed into Pannonia by the Huns around 430 or later, quite understandable. This actually could be Queen Gaatha's people. But I'm talking about a separate branch of the Amals which descended from Ermaneric, the last being Videric. I don't care about who was or was not an Amal in any other instance or time period. Videric was an Amal, but Alatheus wasn't a member of the family. He was simply a Greutungus, aided by Safrax the leader of the Alanic part of that contingent. So, I've never called Alatheus an Amal, because he clearly wasn't in the same fashion Safrax wasn't either. They were just Videric's guardians. With the last mention of Videric, the Amal family stops. Whatever claims Theodoric the Great had about his ancestry, or whatever was expounded in the Origio, is extraneous to this topic.

Whatever happened to the Amals after 376 is up for anyone's guesstimation. However, the Greutungi may have kept on going like the proverbial bunny. Radagaisus (405-06) may have been a Greutungus; and some have claimed Athaulf was one (although highly doubtful, considering he was Alaric's brother-in-law). I would rather not use anything from Jordanes as "proof" of Amalic historicity or not. I'm only concerned with that family in conjuction with the Balths, and both families were fractured by the arrival of the Huns. And I would rather stick to events leading to Adrianople.