Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Subarmalis or gambeson?
#31
Quote:I would like to point out we have no finds of integral padding under mail, scale or anything. Neither do we have no armour with integral padding after the period. Mail with integrated padding would also loose much of what makes it so useful. Flexibility.
All scale armour has an integrated liner. The construction can't be made without one. People constantly confuse standalone padded armour and under padding. Underpadding doesn't have to be thick. A few layers of linen or a winter woollen tunic is more than enough. There are plenty of medieval examples of mail with integrated liners and it doesn't affect flexibility at all. Some have padding on the inside AND outside - they were called jazerants in Europe and kazaghands in the Middle East. Even these constructions suffered no loss of flexibility. Every piece of plate ever found with small holes spaced around the perimeter had an integrated liner. IMO every example of Roman mail with a leather edging around the perimeter had an integrated liner.

The only types of armour during the Roman period that really need some kind of dedicated subarmalis is segmentata and lamellar.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
Reply
#32
That would depend on the Lamellar construction:

Some examples that probably wouldn't need a subarmalis:

[Image: ee8d9c334138f81aece1b3e1c9620bbd.jpg]

(5th Image)
http://comitatus.net/galleryarmour.html
Reply
#33
That's not lamellar. If it can't hold togther without the backing then it is scale.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
Reply
#34
Quote:IMO every example of Roman mail with a leather edging around the perimeter had an integrated liner.

How many examples of Roman mail with leather edging do we have?
Nathan Ross
Reply
#35
Only complete Hauberk I know of is Arbeia and it did not have a leather edging.

@Dan Howard
Why isn't it lamellar then? I mean, show me how in the way the Klivanion was constructed it did not make it lamellar, because I'm pretty sure the leather piece is just an innovation in defence/padding like Lorica segmentata in that it absorbs blows. The Lames connect to each other, the leather pieces are separate and don't hold the piece together as a backing like Scale armr.

And a lot of Lamellar has a leather backing AFAIK.
Reply
#36
Quote:Only complete Hauberk I know of is Arbeia and it did not have a leather edging.

I don't know of any fragments that do either. Several of the pieces from Dura Europos show edging of copper alloy rings (often all that remains, as the iron has rusted away), as does a fragment from a temple deposit in Oxfordshire, indicating that the practice was common across the Roman world. In the British case the edging rings were butted copper, suggesting a decorative function only. No indication that leather was attached.

Sculptural depictions of the 'shoulder yoke' style older hamata appears to show an edging on the shoulder flaps, but that's all I can think of.
Nathan Ross
Reply
#37
Quote:@Dan Howard
Why isn't it lamellar then? I mean, show me how in the way the Klivanion was constructed it did not make it lamellar, because I'm pretty sure the leather piece is just an innovation in defence/padding like Lorica segmentata in that it absorbs blows. The Lames connect to each other, the leather pieces are separate and don't hold the piece together as a backing like Scale armr.

And a lot of Lamellar has a leather backing AFAIK.
The whole point of lamellar was to eliminate the need for a backing. If the construction can't hold together with just lacing then it is scale, not lamellar.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
Reply
#38
Quote:How many examples of Roman mail with leather edging do we have?
Only illustrations and sculptures. No surviving examples. The edging on medieval mail was to attach a lining. What other reason could the Romans have used it for?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
Reply
#39
It holds together with the lacing. You can look at the construction of the Klivanion and tell that. The Leather bands behind the lames do not hold the piece together.
Reply
#40
Quote:Why isn't it lamellar then? I mean, show me how in the way the Klivanion was constructed it did not make it lamellar, because I'm pretty sure the leather piece is just an innovation in defence/padding like Lorica segmentata in that it absorbs blows.
Beatson's reconstruction makes more sense than Dawson's. There is a brief discussion here with some useful links.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/v...1&t=170148
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
Reply
#41
Quote:Only illustrations and sculptures. No surviving examples.

But I think the illustrations and sculptures only show the edging on the shoulder flaps of the old-style hamata, which was built like a linothorax. The Vachères warrior clearly has edging on the shoulder-pieces of his mail, but not at the ends of the 'sleeves'. Quite possibly these shoulder 'yoke' pieces were backed with leather anyway, and intended to be quite stiff.

Unless there are some other depictions clearly showing leather edging at the hem of the mail, and considering the decorative bronze or copper edging that turns up in the archaeological record, we must surely assume that no leather or fabric edging was used on Roman mail and thus there were no integral liners, whatever might have been done in the medieval world?
Nathan Ross
Reply
#42
I use the term "banded scale armour" for the Byzantine armour there - although I suppose it is more a hybrid of scale (in that metal plates are attached to a leather strip) and lamellar (in that the leather strips are laced together), as opposed to what I term "banded armour" - which is technology like the manica and segmentata and certain types of articulation on later plate harnesses, using rivets and internal leathers.

I would hesitate to use the terms "lamellar" or "scale" in isolation when referring to such an armour.
Nadeem Ahmad

Eran ud Turan - reconstructing the Iranian and Indian world between Alexander and Islam
https://www.facebook.com/eranudturan
Reply
#43
Quote:
Dan Howard post=354566 Wrote:Only illustrations and sculptures. No surviving examples.

But I think the illustrations and sculptures only show the edging on the shoulder flaps of the old-style hamata, which was built like a linothorax. The Vachères warrior clearly has edging on the shoulder-pieces of his mail, but not at the ends of the 'sleeves'. Quite possibly these shoulder 'yoke' pieces were backed with leather anyway, and intended to be quite stiff.

Unless there are some other depictions clearly showing leather edging at the hem of the mail, and considering the decorative bronze or copper edging that turns up in the archaeological record, we must surely assume that no leather or fabric edging was used on Roman mail and thus there were no integral liners, whatever might have been done in the medieval world?
That's certainly possible. A lot of us are basing our conclusions on the unproved premise that mail can't be worn without some kind of padding - integrated or otherwise.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
Reply
#44
"unproved premise"

I'm sincerely amused you wrote this down. Tens of thousands of warriors roll in their graves. As for me, I shall wear my mail with padding - not a huge fan of broken collarbones and ribs. Also of fractured sternums,
Kis György Márk (by western standards, György Márk Kis)

Legio Leonum Valentiniani

www.legioleonum.hu
Reply
#45
I think mail was indeed worn without padding. I just think padding started coming along in the 4th century as different shield shape and longer weapons (e.g. Spatha and Contus) meant you were getting hit in the body more. Hence it's heavy use in the medieval era.

I think it's an evolution. Just like Helmets.

Also, looking at Beatson's reconstruction this is how I always thought the Byzantine "Banded" Lamellar was assembled. Except I thought the Edging was also a backing, but the backing wasn't part of the structure of the Lamellar.
Reply


Forum Jump: