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**richsc** · 08-24-2004, 01:47 AM

I think we invited Jenny to kit out with us if she ever comes over, and portray a male soldier. She knows more about the Roman army than most of our group (other than Matt of course) and would definitely be an asset. Legio XX 
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo

08-24-2004, 02:14 AM

Here's a picture of a piece of mine: 
 
66.66.131.145/roman/maill...solid3.jpg 
 
My assembly technique may be more medieval than roman, but when done the shirt should look roman nevertheless. The ring inside diameter is 1/4 inch. I have the upper section of a shirt of hamata about two thirds done. 
 
Andy, 
"Xena" is pure fantasy, though there is some evidence for the existence of amazons, but if true, they existed long before the romans. I might be opening a can of worms, but I sort of like the female auxiliary idea. True, we all strive to be as authentic as possible, but there remains a degree of uncertainty. The idea of women gladiators would of been ridiculed until just recently (though it appears that women were never matched against men, only woman versus woman). We're always filling in gaps of knowledge. Another example is the clips reenactors invented to hold up their belts when wearing segmentata. Clips from Newstead have recently been discovered that are arguably used for the same purpose. I don't know, Lysadra, the last of the amazons? A barbarian personal makes the most sense. You need to invent/find an excuse to fight alongside the romans rather than against them (fighting against the romans might be easier to explain). How to accomplish this without venturing into Xena territory is the question.

08-24-2004, 03:19 AM

Neuralmancer, that piece is nice, and riveted (drools). I can't afford to rivet my stuff, maybe after I've sold a few "pinched" shirts. 
 
As for a Xena type thing, I'm not to into the leather Bikini and stuff, not exactly protective in battle (lol). I'll talk to my Legion about what they think is best, I do want to be an ally rather then an enemy though (that way I get the tents and Gatoraid during the shows!). I played a Jewish Zealot last year, but was dressed up as a boy. The Zealots were mainly Religiose fanatics, and would never allow a female in thier ranks.

JRSCline · 08-24-2004, 10:00 AM

I say good for you, Lysadra. Kitting up like the boys is great, no one can really tell or care from a distance anyway, and whenever I can join Rich and Co. I'll be glad to strap it on -- armor, that is. 
 
Jenny 
-------------------- 
 
"The great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearances, as though they are realities, and are often even more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are." 
-- NiccolÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â³ Machiavelli, The Discourses, 1517.

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 08-24-2004, 10:05 PM

Hi Lysadra, 
You mention that you make "butted" mail, and I too, would like to employ this type of chain mail in my late Roman impression. Does anyone know if the Romans used "butted" mail? I have seen original remnants of Roman mail constructed like Neurolmancer's, but surely at some point they would/could have taken shortcuts and used butted? They simplified many other aspects of their arms and armour during the late period, it just makes sense that they would employ butted mail, too. Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica

08-24-2004, 11:00 PM

Here's one bit of evidence for roman butted maille: 
 
At Dura-Europos (middle 3rd century) allot of maille was found and some it had butted copper-alloy rings on the periphery. The iron portions were too corroded to tell how they were made.

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 08-25-2004, 02:31 AM

Thanks for that information Neuralmancer! Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica

08-25-2004, 02:55 AM

The problem with butted tings is that a good stab will part them. So Arrows can penatrate, as can most Glaldius thrusts. The only thing they really stop is slashes, and even then they would probably need some repair.

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 08-25-2004, 04:05 PM

I don't doubt that statement at all, Lysadra. Certainly butted mail is inferior to riveted or welded or stamped, but the question remains: was it used? Lysadra, what would be a good inner diameter measurement in American measurements for an accurate depiction of Roman mail? By the way, I am a late Roman (late 4th-5th centuries), so by that time the spatha, which was primarily a slashing weapon was used. Of course I am not implying that the spatha could not or was not used to thrust as well as slash, but my guess is that it was made to be swung as opposed to thrust. Butted mail, although far inferior than riveted, as I stated before, would still offer reasonable protection from this type of attack, although I agree that it would have to be repaired more often. 
I guess what I am actually trying to say in a nutshell is this: I would love to have riveted mail, but due to financial restraints and lack of proper skill to make riveted mail, and the fact that I will never be in actual combat, butted mail is a more economical and reasonable alternative for me. I just wish to know if it would be historically correct to use it. Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 08-25-2004, 04:12 PM

By the way, my sincere apologies for getting so far off the main topic, but when mail started being discussed, I had to ask to quell my thirst for an answer to this question! 
My opinion of women reenactors in the ranks is this: Let them do it! No, women may not have served historically, but we should be fair to anyone who wishes to participate. I agree with Jenny in her previous post, from a distance, no one is likely to notice or even care if you are female, provided you are armoured and equipped the same as the rest of the guys. So go for it, and good luck in your endeavors, my hat is off to you! Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica

08-25-2004, 04:42 PM

I just made another thread for the Maille discussiion, here is the link if you get lost easily: p200.ezboard.com/fromanar...1223.topic

08-25-2004, 06:48 PM

I'm like Lucius, if they can pass muster then let them play. I've never had a problem with that. I used to do American Civil War reenactment and we had a woman on my first artillery crew. No one could tell, unless she put on girl clothes (which I enjoyed greatly ). 
 
Cavetus

scythius · 08-25-2004, 07:04 PM

Avete, omnes! 
 
Just back from a music retreat for the last few weeks and just saw this topic. 
 
Legio IX Hispana has no problem with a woman doing a male impression **IF** (and that's a BIG if...) they look the part. 
 
So far, we've only had one female miles, and considering that I addressed her as 'sir' when we first met - AND she was wearing jogging singlet and shorts at the time - I don't think that any of you would have been able to pick her out of a lineup with her armour on... 
 
Scythius 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB 
 
- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS -

08-25-2004, 09:07 PM

Well I knew most of the Xena stuff was pure made up trash, but as I said I thought I had heard of or read a reference to a possible "Xena" like woman in ancient history. I think I might had seen a reference to the name, like "Zena" or whatnot...Ancient Amazon or such... 
 
I won't dispute the...uh...allure...of a woman in [leather] skimpies, purely in a fantasy setting, but when it comes to warfare and armor, you gotta protect the body. I don't care how much of a six-pack "Xena" can have, won't do much against a sword I doubt Joan of Arc would have gone into battle in a flowing dress. Tongue

As for "looking the part" - well I'd say just leave the makeup at home ...If ya can stand wearing the armor, if ya can stand..and march...around with shield and pilum in hand, and ya can yack about Roman stuff like the rest of us Geeks, go for it, ya know?

08-31-2004, 07:32 AM

Hi Lysadra 
 
I only drop into RAT occasionally, so missed this thread whilst it was in full swing. I'm in Comitatus and take part in combat and drill. Since we do (late) Romans I have no choice but to dress up as a chap, which I don't mind in the least. 
 
The main problem comes with doing any Living History (chatting to the visitors in camp). We mostly work for English Heritage who are not keen on women dressed as blokes in the camps as it causes confusion for the audience/visitors. That's fair enough as far as I'm concerned, and I have to change into girlie kit, though it's a pain. 
 
Most early Roman groups in the UK will not allow women (as stated policy) to take part in combat. But there is one group that does allow it and they have at least one excellent female legionary. It was difficult to spot her; I knew there was a female soldier in the group, so was looking out for her, but I bet the most of the audience didn't have a clue. Hidden under the armour, if you're relatively tall, or broad shouldered or have some bulk, you've got a good chance of not being recognised as female. I always wear a helmet to hide my face, and try to keep a stern visage. 
 
I also do not talk to the audience when in male kit, otherwise I end up having to explain why I'm female and in male kit! That's not a bad thing in itself, but I'm more interested in talking about everyday Roman life. 
 
As for female soldiers in the past, there are lots of records (mainly from c. 18th century onwards) of females dressing up as blokes and passing quite well in the Army and Navy. Between the Roman Army and the modern era there weren't rigorous medicals and anyone who wore male clothes and gave the right impression might get recruited. The Roman era is much more thorny, but it sounds like you're already in a group which is prepared to allow you to do the combat thing! 
 
Go ahead and have fun 
 
Viventia/Viventius

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