Method of attachment of Pouan suspensories?

[IGNATIUS LARRASUS PROFUTURUS]

Please, which is the method of attachment of the two suspensory on the scabbard in the spathas like Pouan? In the drawings that appear in books like Miks, do not have nail holes. If not fastened with nails, maybe his role was not the subjection of the sword but to hang decorative stone. Maybe they could hold with glue?
I need to know for decide the method of suspension of the sword. I think the scabbard was subject with one or two leather straps attached embracing the scabbard like swords type Tournuai.
Thanks in advance.

[Thomas V.]

Enlarge [hide]this document[/hide] and take a look at the bottom picture of Fig. 7. On the underside of the scabbard slider there is a rectangular mortise on each side of the scabbard strap opening. Maybe the purpose of said mortises was the accommodation of matching wooden tenons protruding from the wooden body of the scabbard (think of LEGO bricks).

Maybe they could hold with glue?

Glue would provide further stability, of course.

EDIT

I had a further look at Fig 7. As the part bridging the scabbard strap opening is also hollowed out, there is one long mortise (and not two seperate ones). A scabbard slider integrated in the wooden body of the scabbard could serve as the tenon. The metal scabbard sliders wouldn't be the actual ones then, but merely decorative covers.

EDIT 2

As I'm not sure if my comment is clear enough, I have decided to add a picture (the beige, i.e. *wooden", part represents a section of the scabbard):
[attachment=10301]PouanSuspension.jpg[/attachment].

[brennivs - tony drake]

I would agree with Thomas small blocks under the leather would do it. The Sarmations used this on a green nephrite slide. Also there are the 2 small triangular pieces top and bottom these may have had binding around them like below,





I have also used a rod to hold on the slide, but since there was non found with sword a organic material was more likely used.
Regards Brennivs mile:

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I actually learned a lot from this. Thanks for those posts.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Just the ticket Thomas mile: if the scabbard was not a leather covered type, like those found at Vimose. Glad you enjoy the postings Flavivs :grin:
Regards Brennivs :mrgreen:

[markusaurelius]

Maybe the purpose of said mortises was the accommodation of matching wooden tenons protruding from the wooden body of the scabbard

Does anyone speak french? Does the article actually mention that there is evidence that this is how it was attached (ie wooden remnants let behind?)

Could the opening of the slide piece simply be part of the casting process by which the inside was hollowed out to allow for the saving of metal. This was a common way to cast items to save metal (expensive material). Its just interesting that none of the examples with the scabbard still largely intact doesn't appear to show the "tie" method.

In either case the tie method does seem backed up by the evidence on some other slides (these images from The Dura finds) which are reminiscent of the shape of some later slides (such as on the Stilicho diptych)



[attachment=10483]Spathaslide-Dura-bone.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=10484]Spathaslide-Dura-bone-text.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=10485]Spathaslide-Dura-bone-text2.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=10486]Spathaslide-Dura-copperalloy.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=10487]Spathaslide-Dura-copperalloy-text.jpg[/attachment]

[brennivs - tony drake]

Markus there is also a possibility that it was cast to fit over a tenon. The original sword looks like there was no organic material left when found? Their is a Sarmation jade slide that has no means to tie it to the scabbard, so I made a copy put some tenons under the leather and just glued it on it worked. Now the photos you have, I have made them for scabbards,

The second from the left is the top one 549 I used wire to keep it on but cord or sinuew would work as well. As you can see buy the way it has broke the stress put on a slide, but by putting a hole through has weakend it.
The second one I don't have a photo, but again I have just used leather to hold it in place. I hope this was of some use will be in touch
Regards Brennivs

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Brennius, please, how do you do the knot to tie the cords? It's a kind of hidden knot?

[brennivs - tony drake]

Lvcivs I will get back to you I will do a few photos but it is not a knot ;-)
Regards Brennivs

[Thomas V.]

EDIT 3 (It's too late to edit my previous post in this thread)

The part bridging the scabbard strap opening isn't hollow, it's solid. So you can forget about the two edits of my previous posts .

THE ACTUAL NEW POST

Behmer attributes the Pouan Sword to his type III. According to him, the scabbard sliders belonging to said sword types were attached by shoving the pointy ends between the scabbard and its leathern cover. Behmer also states that sometimes rivets respectively "thicker leather in the attachement area" was used to provide further stability.

"Thicker leather" seems to refer to a leathern cuff. A. Hilgner writes that the Flonheim grave 5 sword (Abb.9) had such a cuff, and D. Ade claims that the Basel-Kleinhüningen grave 63 sword had been equipped with a leather cuff and that said cuff had been fastened by the six rivets. The Flonheim sword didn't seem to have such rivets, though. So the absence of rivets, AFAIK the "Frankish" (e.g. Pouan, Flonheim, Planig) gold hilt swords didn't had said rivets, doesn't seem to exclude the use of a leather cuff as a means of a more solid attachement.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Thomas again great :lol: thanks for the pdf. Yes the use of slits in the leather would do the, but I think it would still need something stronger to keep them in place . The use of a leather collar works for me, maybe one day a swords will be found to put our minds at rest
Regards Brennivs

[markusaurelius]

This is an example of an original scabbard that still has the leather Baldric showing and wood. The slide is of the typical roman type with the rivets behind it. There does not appear to be any binding around the slide.


[attachment=11215]0073.jpg[/attachment]

[brennivs - tony drake]

Markus I have been studying other finds like this, and one thing that I have noticed is these type of scabbards that are without leather that the slide could be fitted before the two halfs are put together. So you can make sure the slide is secure.
Regards Brennivs :grin:

[markusaurelius]

True. But couldn't you do the exact same with one covered in leather? Simply cut the leather, measure and place it on the one side. Mount the slide. Glue the two halves together, wrap the leather around, trim and sew up the back like normal.....

[brennivs - tony drake]

I agree Markvs skilled scabbard makers could do this as they would skilled craftsman. I have observed that I have only seen these slides on wood only scabbards but I dare say there is a leather covered one to prove this also.
I myself on a leather scabbard have used a metal bar and nailed through onto this to hold a slide as below;

As with all things unless each type of scabbard slide fitting is tested it will be hard to work out whether they work. I did a leather tying for a slide which is on a sword I made in Roman Army Wars of the Empire Graham Sumner which shows the tying coming apart page 103 but that was after about 7 years since I made it, so to all Raters with slides how long has your slide lasted till it needed to be repaired? We do not use it anywhere near as much as if of the time but I myself do over engineer the the fixing of a slide to the scabbard.
Regards Brennivs