Recreating the Herculaneum man with sword

[ROMan]

Doing briljant work there, Robert, on the scabbard and all. Indeed there is no strict devision, do not forget we have only a couple of scabbards preserved of the thousands apon thousands made. Who is to say what may have been fashionable.

Have you decided on what to do with those tools yet or are you just doing the weapons?

Many thanks for this. The problem is trying to recreate something specific which isn't perfectly preserved.

I am working on the sword first as I will want it for my university course on materials in January when we cover metallurgy as I give them a lecture on the history of the sword, and also teach them a few moves! The tools I will want when we have the Pompeii exhibition in the Summer of next year. I was hoping that someone who had seen the tools could give me more information. I would assume the hammer is actually an adze of the standard form, and I would assume the three chisels include mortise and gouge chisels because that's what I would want, but I note that three chisels found together at Walbrook offer a selection of mortise chisels.

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I really should get going on this as I think I would like to have them forged. The man that makes my weapons does an excellent job of recreating what I ask him, but does not forge the blade. I find this acceptable for a blade as it is all bright and shiny anyway, but I suspect a tool would still look forged. You wouldn't happen to know anyone that has forged Roman carpenter's tools, would you?

[ROMan]

I often wonder if the rings attached to the pommel nut ARE the decorations, themselves.

I don't think it's necessary to attach tassels or anything to those rings. If it's anything similar to the suspension rings seen
on gladius and pugio scabbards, it doesn't appear that all 4 rings are necessarily "used", it appears that it may have become a
personal preference for how they were suspended on the belt, etc.

With all of the "dangly" things on Roman Mid-Imperial period gear, between belt strap terminals, signum and vexillum standards, scabbards, even shield covers and bags (like the commachio find), it appears that fringe and dangly bits are common in that period. I don't think it's a stretch to think that some decorative rings on a sword pommel is possible.

It seems that the Roman military were well into being jangly, and these would jangle. My idea of suspension comes from Middle Eastern horse-archer practice. I am unable at the moment to find a depiction of this, however, I noticed someone using a ring-pommel in this manner in a movie I watched with the family at the weekend:

[Robert]

Hi Robert,

Any competent blacksmith should be able to forge tools, given a decent drawing with scale. If the "hammer" is an adze, it would stand to reason the chissels are for woodworking. I have a very good book on a hoardfind of Roman carpentry tools, found in Austria. You may want to have a look at the adze I did, it is in the Fabrica under tools. Though Roman, it does not have that strange "swing" to it. But it could also (and perhaps more likely) be a masons hammer, which would have implications for the sort of chissels. This would require some research.

Cheers

[ROMan]

So I have created a design for the repousse panel (below). The horizontal lines which are clearly visible look too substantial to be foliage, and the lions at the base would also be important to this feature, so I went with the idea of a candelabrum, which seems an important motif in this period, and often seems to have lions flanking the sides of the object itself. I largely went with the Fulham design since it seemed closest for the rest. Any thoughts?


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[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

Hi Robert. It does look like a candelabrum. It also looks like a column with dolphins wrapped around it. The picture is on the small side. Which scabbard is that line drawing from?

[ROMan]

This is the latest version, now with all elements. I looked through the Miks book to see if I could find any pommels like my earlier drawing, and I couldn't, so I looked at the photograph with more typical pommels in mind to come up with this version, with the jangly bit added. It seems to be shaped a bit like "typical" "Mainz" pommels (the Speyer silvered one in particular) but narrower, like the spherical "Pompeii" types. The blade is based on the Guttman/Leeds sword, but if I have the scale of the Herculaneum sword right it is actually larger. The upper panels have yet to have decoration determined for them. I assume there was some, perhaps like "Pompeii" types as there does seem to be evidence of cut-work rather than repousse. I am still not really sure about the repousse panel, and will continue to try to get some opinions on that. I was pondering whether it is better to create a sword that is possibly (probably?) wrong rather than a completely different sword which is "right" (perhaps put together various pieces of equipment from Herculaneum and Pompeii), but in the end I decided that I'd rather have a stab at this than have yet another of the hundreds of copies of the half-dozen examples that are usually copied.


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[ROMan]

So I have some queries out to some art-historians to ask their opinion of the candelabrum motif generally, and have turned my attention to this man's dagger.

[attachment=10861]Hercule_Dagger.jpg[/attachment]

On this drawing are a number of pointy things or their scabbards to the same scale. To the right of the scale is a photo of the dagger, a photo of a Pompeii dagger which I think was found with gladiator equipment and is sometimes called a "gladiator dagger", the scabbard and hilt of another Pompeii dagger, a well-known Mainz gladius, and a bunch of pugio scabbards. To the left is my reconstruction of the Herculaneum dagger, and it's scabbard. One thing I think I am confident of: it really is quite big. I also think it is not of a pugio form, as they seem a lot more standardised and typically have waisted scabbards. I think it is too narrow to be a cut-down Mainz-pattern sword. The scabbard is wood covered with leather, but I doubt it was plain, instead I have drawn it with leather parts substituting for metal parts, and it is decorated like the Pompeii dagger, and possibly also like the Masada leather scabbard fragment. The one d-ring visible has been placed as though for suspension, as close to the in-situ location as possible. This is too low for a single pair, which might be too few for such a big blade anyway, so I have two pairs for suspension. Any thoughts?

[Robert]

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I believe you are right in thinking this is not a cut down sword but was a dagger forged to that shape. Some time back, I started this very dagger (blade is 29 cm) as a hobby project to practice forging rhomboid cross sections. To be able to make the grip, I would need to draw out the tang a bit more. The four D rings suggest the dagger was worn high on the belt, a very secure way of fixing it with tongs running crosswise behing the belt.

The knife with the scabbard to the left of the Mainz is a single edged blade, by the way.

[Vindex]

That's a smart looking weapon, Robert.

[Crispvs]

Matt - those plates from Albion don't even remotely resemble the belt plates from Herculaneum, I would avoid them, if I were you.

When I attended the Pompeii and Herculaneum exhibition at the British Museum a year ago, I ha a good look at the Herculaneum soldier's equipment and noted my observations in this thread, to which Rich Campbell has added some useful photos:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-mi...tml#344649

Crispvs

[ROMan]

Matt - those plates from Albion don't even remotely resemble the belt plates from Herculaneum, I would avoid them, if I were you.

When I attended the Pompeii and Herculaneum exhibition at the British Museum a year ago, I ha a good look at the Herculaneum soldier's equipment and noted my observations in this thread, to which Rich Campbell has added some useful photos:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-mi...tml#344649

Crispvs

The belt I have ordered (and is hopefully on it's way right now) is from the Königs. This has been discussed previously on RAT, indeed it's where I found out about it. What do you think of that one, Crispus?

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I wrote to Paul Roberts about the sword, and he said that the upper plates of the sword were repousse, but so burnt that nothing was visible. I suspect that the only part preserved was hidden from the pyroclastic blast by the hanging silver ornaments on the scabbard. So I have made up the other parts based on other swords, From the photo it looked like there was something roundish in the centre of the lower of the two plates, so I thought I'd go with the erotes and shield motif, plus the Romulus & Remus motif. I have sent this drawing to my sword-maker only yesterday, so there is still time if people have comments!:

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I also made a few modifications to the dagger, and this is my final drawing:

[attachment=10880]Hercule_Dagger2.jpg[/attachment]

[Crispvs]

That belt looks perfect, exactly as I would expect from Erik, who is a master craftsman and checks the details of original items very carefully. Be aware though that he does not generally keep items 'in stock' but makes them to order and sometimes has a long waiting list. He can also be very slow to respond to enquiries as well. Hopefully your belt is indeed on its way already, but knowing Erik, I hope you don't need it immediately.

Incidentally, I wasn't trying to suggest in my earlier post that you had been mistaken to order the belt - far from it! It was really a response to Matt's link to the Albion site for the benefit of others who might see.

Crispvs

[ROMan]

That belt looks perfect, exactly as I would expect from Erik, who is a master craftsman and checks the details of original items very carefully. Be aware though that he does not generally keep items 'in stock' but makes them to order and sometimes has a long waiting list. He can also be very slow to respond to enquiries as well. Hopefully your belt is indeed on its way already, but knowing Erik, I hope you don't need it immediately.

Incidentally, I wasn't trying to suggest in my earlier post that you had been mistaken to order the belt - far from it! It was really a response to Matt's link to the Albion site for the benefit of others who might see.

Crispvs

Any thoughts on the sword and dagger?

[Robert]

Dagger looks good, I like the scabbard rendering. What material will you be making the hilt from? Grip looks bone, but pommel and guard may be a different story.

[ROMan]

Dagger looks good, I like the scabbard rendering. What material will you be making the hilt from? Grip looks bone, but pommel and guard may be a different story.

Of the dagger? The pommel and guard seem to be made of ivory judging by the photo, there isn't anything visible of the grip, but it is presumably a material that does not have the same properties, so perhaps wood? D'Amato in his Ancient Warfare article says the grip is made of bone and wood, but the concentric structure certainly looks like ivory. The sword seems to be made of wood that was originally covered by silver, according to D'Amato and Paul Robert's BM catalogue. I actually haven't said anything about silver to my sword maker! I might pretend it was an oversight!