As the title says who commanded the velites? If the velites are skirmishing in front of the legion, they must have some sort of command system. I find it hard to accept that the centurions of the hastati would be commanding the velites while they skirmished, then these same centurions be expected to command the hastati once the skirmishing of the velites is terminated.
Livy’s ordo system for 340 BC has the rorarii allocated centurions, so why wouldn’t the velites? Polybius’ description of the velites at Zama would imply they have a command structure. Although Polybius gives the number of military tribunes to a legion at six, I believe this only applies to the standard legion relating to the four property classes. However, like the rorarii, the velites are proletarii and therefore, the legion has five property classes with the velites.
For the battle of Cannae, Plutarch numbers the Roman army at 88,000 men in battle array. The number I have is greater than 88,000 men. However, when I remove from the total all those non fighting personal and leave only those in battle array (infantry and cavalry), I get exactly 88,000 men. There is no fudging or rounding. Because they are emergency legions, there are more military tribunes in command of the legion, and when there are more military tribunes there are more centurions. So if I follow the numbers, the velites should be under the command of centurions and military tribunes.
But if anyone can refute this I would be more than happy to hear their point of view.
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In the sixth book of his historiae Polybius says that velites were assigned to each maniple, so they should have been commanded by centurions...i don't know if, in the inital stage of a battle, when all velites used to be in front of the army, they had some sort of direct command sistem with centurions of their own maniple...
Francesco Guidi
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What about when they teamed up with cavalry?
Fransceso wrote:
In the sixth book of his historiae Polybius says that velites were assigned to each maniple, so they should have been commanded by centurions...i don't know if, in the inital stage of a battle, when all velites used to be in front of the army, they had some sort of direct command sistem with centurions of their own maniple...
I can’t see the centurions of the maniples of hastati, principes and triarii being present with the velites when they are massed in front of the whole army as they were at Zama. This would involve the centurions having to return to their own maniples after the skirmishing of the velites is over (those that lived) and then have them take command and fight with their own maniple. This would be asking a lot of the centurions.
The references I have massed lately points towards the velites having their own officers. For example, in 207 BC, in an engagement against the Carthaginians, Livy (27 41) reports the Roman commander Nero, ordered five cohorts and five maniples to take up position on the reverse slope in order to set a trap against the Carthaginians. My money is that the five maniples are velites.
I have an file of references I keep that do not make sense or are difficult to fathom (called the X file) but now by including officers with the velites these primary source references make a lot of sense especially all references to legions of 5200 men. Originally this legion had more rounding of the number than other legions but with the inclusion of the additional officers, the rounding is the same as other legions so I have continuity of methodology.
Since I made this post I have answered my own questions…the velites have a unit organisation and their own officers.
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Do the Velites actually need anyone to be actually in command with them whilst they were out skirmishing? I would say they had a precisely defined role and that they all knew what they were supposed to do. Their main role on the battlefield would have been to screen their heavy infantry deployment and prevent anyone disrupting this deployment. Once the troops were fully deployed the velites would retire behind the lines and then probably took no further part in the battle other to join in the pursuit of the enemy once they were broken.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
Adrian wrote:
Do the Velites actually need anyone to be actually in command with them whilst they were out skirmishing?
That was my thought on the matter for many years. But Polybius (6 21-24) does mention: “They also wear a plain helmet, and sometimes cover it with a wolf's skin or something similar both to protect and to act as a distinguishing mark by which their officers can recognize them and judge if they fight pluckily or not.”
I believe the velites skirmished in relays and this would explain the need for officers. The velites on the march would also need a command and control system. I don’t make decisions lightly when it comes to what I put in my book and I have been sitting on this issue for years. However, the legion sizes given in the primary sources fit the additional officers required, especially for the 5200 man legion so for me I am extremely confident of allocating the velites officers.
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I would think that the actions of the velites could be controlled by trumpet calls, so that their officers could retain control of them without actually having to leave the battle line. That still leaves the question of precisely these officers were.
Pecunia non olet
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Quote:Adrian wrote:
Do the Velites actually need anyone to be actually in command with them whilst they were out skirmishing?
That was my thought on the matter for many years. But Polybius (6 21-24) does mention: “They also wear a plain helmet, and sometimes cover it with a wolf's skin or something similar both to protect and to act as a distinguishing mark by which their officers can recognize them and judge if they fight pluckily or not.”
I believe the velites skirmished in relays and this would explain the need for officers. The velites on the march would also need a command and control system. I don’t make decisions lightly when it comes to what I put in my book and I have been sitting on this issue for years. However, the legion sizes given in the primary sources fit the additional officers required, especially for the 5200 man legion so for me I am extremely confident of allocating the velites officers.
But doesn't Polybius also assign them to maniples? If that is the case, then they already have officers, centurions. Who being back in the main battleline, would need a way to individually tell one apart from the other (for noting their bravery or cowardice), which would explain the animal skins.
John wrote:
That still leaves the question of precisely these officers were.
In his description of the ordine system, Livy has the rorarii accompanied by centurions. Following the number trail, the rorarii become the velites and the reason why the name changed is as Gellius tells us; when the proletarii were levied, the proletarii were given: “a more auspicious name derived from their duty and function.”
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I agree with John, the Velites had a specific battlefield role which they would have drilled and practiced to the extent that they would not have needed an officer whilst out skirmishing, they would instead have been listening for the trumpet call to retire back behind their parent legion.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
Adrian wrote:
I agree with John, the Velites had a specific battlefield role which they would have drilled and practiced to the extent that they would not have needed an officer.
John agrees there were officers but is not sure who they are.
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Quote:Adrian wrote:
I agree with John, the Velites had a specific battlefield role which they would have drilled and practiced to the extent that they would not have needed an officer.
John agrees there were officers but is not sure who they are.
I would have thought that was obvious, the officers would have been of the parent unit the velites were attached to i.e. the maniple.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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I meant that it is not clear to me exactly which of the manipular officers had charge of the velites. Was it the centurio or one of the others? Of course, in the ancient world, the rules were much more fast-and-loose than in the modern world, with its rigid chains of command.
Pecunia non olet
John wrote:
I meant that it is not clear to me exactly which of the manipular officers had charge of the velites. Was it the centurio or one of the others? Of course, in the ancient world, the rules were much more fast-and-loose than in the modern world, with its rigid chains of command.
I understand I am in the minority here (what’s new). However, the empirical data tells me from the days of the rorarii to the velites, they had their own officers. Besides some textual evidence, the numbers add up and I am going with the numbers. Whether the officers were termed centurions I do not know. They could be the most junior ranking centurions. However, the ranking system of the centurions is no longer the focus of my research.
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Just thought of something.
i've read here and there that the antesignani were the 1st century BC version of the velites. Assuming that's true, I can't help to notice that Caesar reported sending the antesignani of the 14th Legion to seize a hill, and then latter reported the death of a centurio from the 1st Cohors of that Legion ( Primus hastatus prior or posterior ?).
Not sure what to make of that one.
Quote:What about when they teamed up with cavalry?
That's a good question that needs answering imho.
Timothee.
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