Illustrations of Sassanid Persian Clibanarii

[Urselius]

I was thinking of the Julian description, the others, as you say, use very general terminology for the armour of the torso.

In response to Dan, the mail-clad knight also had a damn-great shield, which was his primary protection from lances. The Roman cataphract does not seem to have had a shield, which would make him much more like a 15th century man-at-arms, whose plate armour had made a shield superfluous.

[ValentinianVictrix]

I am of course aware that the Dura graffiti shows the rider apparently wearing what appears to be mail covering the face and chest with metallic plates covering the abdomen region. However, Constantius II was credited with improving the existing Clibanarii rider and horse's armour so may have introduced a metallic chest covering that went over the mail that had previously been worn.

The Sassanid equivalents show the riders wearing a cuirasse and the famous cameo depicting Sharpur I's capture of Valerian has both Sharpur wearing a cuirasse as does Valerian but both cuirasses are subtly different-

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:C..._Paris.jpg

[Renatus]

Constantius II was credited with improving the existing Clibanarii rider and horse's armour so may have introduced a metallic chest covering that went over the mail that had previously been worn.

Or in substitution for it. Without some evidence, we cannot know and it would, in my opinion, be a speculation too far to try to attribute to him a development for which, if I understand the argument correctly, there is no evidence until several centuries later. Incidentally, can anyone explain to me why it is necessary to wear mail under plate? It seems like belt and braces to me.

[Sextus Saturninus]

The cataphracts could wear mail under their cuirasses, just it would add extra weight. It would give more protection, and it would make you die of heat :-( The cataphracts wore only laminated armor on the chest, legs, and arms, and not full plate armor, so the need to wear mail under it is reasonable Also, the laminated armor only covered the top part of your arm or leg, so wearing mail would protect the rear.

[daryush]

There is textual reference from the Arab conquests that Sasanian and Arab warriors sometimes wore two layers of armour, but it is not clear how common this was. This is unfortunately 2nd hand info so I can't provide verbatim quotes. Khosrow I's "kit list" also specifies two layers of armour. There is an interesting depiction from Bamiyan that shows a maille skirt and padded torso - unclear if this is a guy in half armour, or if there is a padded garment worn on top of a full hauberk. The Shapur cameo linked to earlier in the thread likely shows a hip length textile worn over some other form of armour, likely scale in this instance.

Double layering of armour is nothing special, and we see it even in China and Tibet where warriors wear plate disks over the chest and abdomen, on top of a lamellar or scale cuirass, so it need not be limited to maille.

[Urselius]

The char aina armour of 17th-19th centuries was worn over mail:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/9...d329b7.jpg

The girdle of plates shown above is somewhat reminiscent of the Dura graffito, to my mind.

Early in the evolution of plate armour in Medieval Europe c. 1280- 1330 both the 'coat of plates' and limb armour, such as polyns, were worn over mail.

[Dan Howard]

I was thinking of the Julian description, the others, as you say, use very general terminology for the armour of the torso.

In response to Dan, the mail-clad knight also had a damn-great shield, which was his primary protection from lances. The Roman cataphract does not seem to have had a shield, which would make him much more like a 15th century man-at-arms, whose plate armour had made a shield superfluous.

Gregory of Tours [2.27] wrote that King Clovis’ armour protected him from two lance hits:
Afterwards the king, when having put the Goths to flight he had killed king Alaric, two from the enemy army suddenly coming upon him, with their lances they strike him on both sides; but with the help of his mail and of the speed of his horse, he did not perish but was preserved.

The memoirs of Usamah ibn Munquidh (1095-1188) recount an anecdote in which he jumped his horse over a hedge and solidly struck a Frankish knight with his lance such that:
He bent sideways so much that his head reached his stirrup, his shield and lance fell off his hand, and his helmet off his head... he then resumed his position, erect in the saddle. Having had linked mail under his tunic, my lance did not wound him.

Over the page, Usamah describes how he charged at what he perceived to be an enemy and hit the man in the armpit with his lance, knocking him off his horse. It was fortunate that the man’s mail saved him from injury because he turned out to be a friend. In another battle, Usamah’s cousin named Khitam was attacked by Frankish lancers and unhorsed. They then reversed their lances and began to thrust into him while he lay on the ground: However, Khitam was wearing “a coat of mail the links of which were so strong that their lances could have no effect on it.

William the Breton wrote that, During the Battle of Bouvines (1214), the Count of Saint-Pol survived twelve lances hitting him during one hard-pressed encounter:
As those who witnessed the following have since recounted, at this point he came into great mortal danger as he was hit by twelve lances at the same time, and yet, with the help of his outstanding virtue, no one could bring either him or his horse down.

One might suspect that the count was saved more by his mail than by his virtue. In another incident at Bouvines, King Philip himself was brought down by lances and hooks but was saved by his armour:
While they were fighting Otto and the Germans, the Teuton foot soldiers who had gone on ahead suddenly reached the King and, with lances and iron hooks, brought him to the ground. If the outstanding virtue of the special mail with which his body was enclosed had not protected him, they would have killed him on the spot.

[Dan Howard]

The char aina armour of 17th-19th centuries was worn over mail:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/9...d329b7.jpg

The girdle of plates shown above is somewhat reminiscent of the Dura graffito, to my mind.

Early in the evolution of plate armour in Medieval Europe c. 1280- 1330 both the 'coat of plates' and limb armour, such as polyns, were worn over mail.

The practice was common in the Middle Ages, starting around the 12th century. Find an example before this time.

[Renatus]

The cataphracts wore only laminated armor on the chest, legs, and arms, and not full plate armor, so the need to wear mail under it is reasonable Also, the laminated armor only covered the top part of your arm or leg, so wearing mail would protect the rear.

What is your authority for this?

[Urselius]

And Henri II of France was killed by a lance when wearing the best quality plate armour, reinforced for the joust. There are always incidents that can be quoted to support virtually any argument. The Byzantinist Birkenmeier made an analysis of wounds caused in cavalry versus cavalry battle, as described in the 11-12th century combats in the Alexiad. Though lance combat lasted a short time - lances were shattered or discarded for melee weapons quite quickly in battle - lances caused 32.1% of serious wounds and lances were the largest single cause of serious wounds to the torso. 87% of lance wounds resulted in the victim being unable to continue fighting.
These combatants would have had shields and I maintain that the shield was the mail-clad horseman's best defence against the lance.

[Urselius]

The char aina armour of 17th-19th centuries was worn over mail:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/9...d329b7.jpg

The girdle of plates shown above is somewhat reminiscent of the Dura graffito, to my mind.

Early in the evolution of plate armour in Medieval Europe c. 1280- 1330 both the 'coat of plates' and limb armour, such as polyns, were worn over mail.

The practice was common in the Middle Ages, starting around the 12th century. Find an example before this time.

I don't need to, I am just indicating a precedent. It should be noted that the char aina armour over mail was worn in India, a rather hot region, apparently without disastrous overheating consequences, or problems of weight either.

Returning to the Roman cataphract, a description by Julian suggests that the elements of armour were connected by mail. This is a much greater technological leap - presaging Ottoman mail-and-plate - than merely wearing plate armour elements over a mailshirt or scale.

[Dan Howard]

I don't need to, I am just indicating a precedent.

The key part ot the word "precedent" is PRE.

[Renatus]

The armour shown in the Firuzabad reliefs referred to in Druzhina's opening post is interesting in its variety of styles. The Sassanid cataphracts have strip armour on their legs but their arms, where greater flexibility is required, are protected by mail. They have mail skirts covering their lower abdomen and thighs but the type of armour protecting their torso is unclear. It could be plate or it may be another type of armour covered by a surcoat. Their Parthian opponents are similarly armoured, except that their arms are protected by strip armour.

His description seems to best fit the "plated mail" construction where mail is used in between plates to better articulate them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plated_mail

I was also intrigued by some of the examples of plated mail illustrated in the Wikipedia article. The long rectangular plates on the Mughal mail and plate coat put me in mind of the similar plates on the so-called 'charging clibanarius' graffito from Dura Europus and the Japanese karuta tatami-do is reminiscent of the cuirasses made up of square plates among the fragmentary sculptures from Khalchayan discussed in a recent thread in the Greek Military History & Archaeology category.

[Urselius]

I don't need to, I am just indicating a precedent.

The key part ot the word "precedent" is PRE.

OK, a paradigm then. Persons were raising doubts about the practicality of wearing plate over mail, the existence of char aina armour makes the point eloquently that it was perfectly practical.

[Urselius]

I think that mail-and-plate is inherently less likely than a system of strapping for any putative plate girdle for Roman cataphract use, because we know that the Romans used leather strapping for articulating armour. Julian's description could merely indicate that gaps between plate elements in cataphract armour exposed an underlying mail shirt. This would work for the shoulder and the gap between torso and leg armour, though the hands would have to have been covered by separate mail defences.