Illustrations of Sassanid Persian Clibanarii

[Renatus]

Persons were raising doubts about the practicality of wearing plate over mail, the existence of char aina armour makes the point eloquently that it was perfectly practical.

I was not questioning the practicality; I was querying the necessity. However, perhaps I am misunderstanding the concept of plate-over-mail. I was assuming that this involved a complete mail defence covered by a complete plate defence. In other words, a cuirass of mail covered by a cuirass of plate. I can quite see the desirability of wearing a suit of mail with vulnerable points further protected by additional solid plates. So far as clibanarii are concerned, however, I see them more as wearing plate (in the broadest terms) with gaps filled with mail than as wearing predominantly mail with separate overlying plates. Nevertheless, that is not to exclude the possibility of a combination in which different parts of the body are covered by different types of armour, as I noted in the case of the Sassanid cataphracts.

[ValentinianVictrix]

I think it might be an idea to discuss how I have worn a cuirasse over mail. I have a knee-length mail hauberk the sleeves of which extend to my elbows. As an experiment a friend, who is of a similar build, allowed me to experiment with putting the muscle cuirasse he has over the top of my mail hauberk. His cuirasse is hinged on one side and done up on the other with several straps and buckles. It was fairly easy to get the cuirasse over the hauberk, much easier than we initially thought to be honest. The advantage of this was then the hauberk was kept snug against the padded shirt I had under the hauberk which gave a good range of movement.

I cannot claim either the Roman's or Sassanids did something similar, but considering the depictions of Sassand cataphracts appear to be wearing chest cuirasses with in some cases also evidence of them wearing mail over other areas.

I find it really curious that people question Roman depictions of troops wearing muscle type cuirasses but no one appears to question the Sassanid depictions of their cavalry wearing them.

[Renatus]

Returning to the Roman cataphract, a description by Julian suggests that the elements of armour were connected by mail. This is a much greater technological leap - presaging Ottoman mail-and-plate - than merely wearing plate armour elements over a mailshirt or scale.

When I need help with Greek translation, I turn to a former Head of Classics at my old school. I consulted him on the passage from Julian some time ago and he offered the following translation, which he said was as near to literal as he could make it, no doubt (although he did not say it specifically) to minimize translator's bias:

'With them fitting to the thorakes by means of certain things made from a slender ring as if woven, no naked part of the body would be seen . . .'

This reads to me more like mail being attached to the cuirass than underlying it.

[Urselius]

Returning to the Roman cataphract, a description by Julian suggests that the elements of armour were connected by mail. This is a much greater technological leap - presaging Ottoman mail-and-plate - than merely wearing plate armour elements over a mailshirt or scale.

When I need help with Greek translation, I turn to a former Head of Classics at my old school. I consulted him on the passage from Julian some time ago and he offered the following translation, which he said was as near to literal as he could make it, no doubt (although he did not say it specifically) to minimize translator's bias:

'With them fitting to the thorakes by means of certain things made from a slender ring as if woven, no naked part of the body would be seen . . .'

This reads to me more like mail being attached to the cuirass than underlying it.

Indeed, but the application of Occam's razor would lead to a different conclusion. We know the Romans made mailshirts, we know that the Romans made various forms of plate armour articulated by leather strapping. Parsimony would reject the likelihood of mail-and-plate constructs as that would require the introduction of a technology, attaching plate armour elements to each other using mail links, that we have no concrete evidence that the Romans employed.

[Renatus]

Indeed, but the application of Occam's razor would lead to a different conclusion. We know the Romans made mailshirts, we know that the Romans made various forms of plate armour articulated by leather strapping. Parsimony would reject the likelihood of mail-and-plate constructs as that would require the introduction of a technology, attaching plate armour elements to each other using mail links, that we have no concrete evidence that the Romans employed.

Very well, so you then have to introduce a hypothesis as to what Julian was actually trying to say. Occam's razor would dictate that it should be accepted that Julian knew what he was talking about and that his words should be taken at face value.

[Dan Howard]

Do we have any fragments dating this early that might be interpreted as the plated mail construction - perhaps a piece of plate with a mail link threaded through it?

[Alanus]

Greetings from the Sweat Pit,

Here is an interesting, perhaps relevant, passage from Sidonius' 3rd letter to Ecdicius.
"Some kissed away the dust which covered you, others caught the bridle that was thick with blood and foam; some turned back the pommels of the horses' saddles, which were bathed in sweat, others, when you wished to free your head from the skull-piece of the helmet, unclasped the bands of pliant steel; some entangled themselves in disentangling the fastenings of your greaves; some counted the dents on the edges of swords blunted with slaughter; others, by forcing in their envious fingers, measured the holes made by blade and point amid the rings of the cuirasses..."

More sweat from the Ovens of Gallia. :whistle:
More damaged armor from "blade" and "point." :dizzy:
Curious that Sidonius uses, "atquae punctim foraminatos circulos loricarum digitis livescentibus metiuntur."
(W.B. Anderson trans. with corrected punctuation by some guy from the Steppes of Maine.) ;-)

[Dan Howard]

Damaged armour is good. It is doing its job by keeping the wearer alive. Another good account is King Olaf Trygvason's Saga in the Heimskringla, it was written that King Hakon was hit with so many spears and arrows that his mail was completely destroyed. He threw the remains off onto the deck of his ship and continued to fight without it:

The ring-linked coat of strongest mail could not withstand the iron hail,
Though wrought with care and elbow bent, by Norn, on its strength intent.
The fire of battle raged around, Odin’s steel shirt flew all unbound!
The earl his mail from him flung, its steel rings on the wet deck rung;
Part of it fell into the sea, a part was kept, a proof to be
How sharp and thick the arrow-flight among the sea-steeds in this fight.

[Urselius]

Very well, so you then have to introduce a hypothesis as to what Julian was actually trying to say. Occam's razor would dictate that it should be accepted that Julian knew what he was talking about and that his words should be taken at face value.

As you say translation is not an exact science and we do not have all the cultural references to decode the nuances of what an antique writer is trying to express. You can state with confidence that Julian knew what he was saying but the same cannot be said for any modern person's understanding.

In addition to what I said earlier the 'plate armour connected by mail' technology would both have had to have been developed by the Romans and to have been thoroughly forgotten about for the many centuries between the 4th century and the Ottoman Turks in the 15th-16th centuries.

I do not exclude the possibility that separate mail additions to an undergarment is indicated by Julian, like the mail stitched to the armpits of late Medieval arming doublets, covering the gaps between plate defences. This seems to me to be more likely than the use of fixed mail junctions between plate elements.

Consider that the Julian excerpt seems to indicate the junctions between the thorax armour and the limb armour were protected by the "web" defence; if the 'plate connected by mail' scenario was real, then the thorax armour and limb armour would have been in one piece and therefore very difficult to put on and take off. A full mailcoat with separate plate additions would be more practical, as would an undergarment provided with mail voiders (gussets) at junctions or gaps between other armour elements.

[Renatus]

As you say translation is not an exact science and we do not have all the cultural references to decode the nuances of what an antique writer is trying to express. You can state with confidence that Julian knew what he was saying but the same cannot be said for any modern person's understanding.

Now that I can agree with. The problem is that the ancient descriptions are less than explicit and we are attempting to explain them by invoking techniques which may have existed but for which there is no contemporary evidence. I agree that the prospect of putting on what is, in effect, a one-piece suit of armour in which all the elements are joined by mail is a daunting one but not, I don't think, impossible. It would not be easy, or even possible, to do so without assistance but there would be grooms and servants about to help. It is, nevertheless, easier to envisage the individual elements being put on separately.

In this instance, the issue turns upon what Julian means by sunarmozomenôn, 'fitting together'. Does he mean that the elements were connected to each other and, if so, whether they were attached permanently or temporarily, or that they adjoined but were not attached? It is quite possible to imagine a section of mail being attached permanently to, say, the cuirass on one side but fixed temporarily by straps or some other means to the arm or leg defences on the other, or simply overlapping them as may be the case on the Sasanian rock reliefs. This is speculation, of course, but an interpretation that the ancient descriptions do not warrant, in my opinion, is either that the armour was layered or that it was principally mail with occasional reinforcements of plate.

[Dan Howard]

Pretty much all types of armour that cover most of the body require assistance to put on. I own seven different types of armour and I can only put one of them on without help.

[Urselius]

I just remembered an image showing that the Romans probably did layer plate over mail, as shown here:

http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/junkel-2.jpg

The Arlon cavalrymen are shown wearing what appear to be segmented plate pauldrons over mail shirts. The possibility of plate being worn over mail defences for Roman cataphracts is thereby strengthened. Given that the sculpture is crisp and shows accurate details, such as trilobate pommels on the swords and embossed decoration on the helmet cheekpieces, the idea that the strips at the shoulders are distorted depictions of leather edging on mail shoulder doubling seems far-fetched.

[Renatus]

The Arlon cavalrymen are shown wearing what appear to be segmented plate pauldrons over mail shirts. The possibility of plate being worn over mail defences for Roman cataphracts is thereby strengthened.

I had forgotten about that too, although I have to say that that is the first half-way decent picture of it that I have seen. It could bear the interpretation that you put upon it but, that said, I am not sure that it helps overmuch. It is, as far as I know, unique, and the fact that some 1st century(?) auxiliary cavalrymen may have substituted mail shoulder-doubling with another form of protection, possibly in metal, probably has little bearing upon the form of armour worn by elite specialist heavy cavalry, arising out of a different tradition, three centuries later. I repeat that what is needed to support the theory that clibanarii wore plate-over-mail is some evidence that the ancient descriptions are of predominantly mail-clad warriors further protected by additional metal plates and, as far as I am aware, we do not have that.

[Sextus Saturninus]

In the third century, some of the infantry and cavalry wore scale gorgets over their regular scale or mail armor. It looked a lot like the cavalry shoulder doublings of past principate times. The cavalry could have worn scale over their mail in other places too.

[Renatus]

Could you show us an example?