Illustrations of Sassanid Persian Clibanarii

[Urselius]

The Arlon cavalrymen are shown wearing what appear to be segmented plate pauldrons over mail shirts. The possibility of plate being worn over mail defences for Roman cataphracts is thereby strengthened.

I had forgotten about that too, although I have to say that that is the first half-way decent picture of it that I have seen. It could bear the interpretation that you put upon it but, that said, I am not sure that it helps overmuch. It is, as far as I know, unique, and the fact that some 1st century(?) auxiliary cavalrymen may have substituted mail shoulder-doubling with another form of protection, possibly in metal, probably has little bearing upon the form of armour worn by elite specialist heavy cavalry, arising out of a different tradition, three centuries later. I repeat that what is needed to support the theory that clibanarii wore plate-over-mail is some evidence that the ancient descriptions are of predominantly mail-clad warriors further protected by additional metal plates and, as far as I am aware, we do not have that.

I think that your 'burden of proof' approach is too rigorous. What we have are a few short descriptions, open to variations in translation and interpretation, one image - this apparently a doodle by a talented amateur artist - and some renditions of disjointed armour on weathered monuments and recopied manuscripts. Not much to go on. What I am trying to do is come up with some ideas about how Roman cataphract armour could have worked and make some sort of ranking as to possibility/probability. With that limited goal in mind the Arlon bas relief is relevant as it gives a precedent (even in Dan's restricted use of the term) for Roman use of plate-over-mail defences. In my opinion this strengthens the plate-over-mail scenario and weakens that of mail-and-plate.

[Dan Howard]

With that limited goal in mind the Arlon bas relief is relevant as it gives a precedent (even in Dan's restricted use of the term) for Roman use of plate-over-mail defences. In my opinion this strengthens the plate-over-mail scenario and weakens that of mail-and-plate.

I don't see any mail at all in that carving. Even the plate is tenuous. It could be interpreted several different ways. There is no way to tell without knowing how it was painted.

[Urselius]

If only the upper part of the soldiers were shown and they were not on horses, how would you then interpret the relief?

The cavalrymen are wearing some sort of ribbed sub-armalis, the outer 'shirt' is scalloped at the bottom and in one case also at the arm. They are armed and helmeted and obviously in action - I think the burden of evidence would lead the least informed viewer to think that, on balance, they are armoured. Given the similarity to the treatment of cavalry mailcoats on the reliefs of the monumental columns in Rome I think they are wearing mailcoats. The strips at the shoulder terminate in a staggered way, it is not conventional shoulder doubling and the treatment is very similar to depictions of the shoulder elements of segmented armour. Do I have cast iron proof of this, no. Once again there is an unrealistic burden of proof demanded.

Transplant the shoulder pieces from any of the soldiers left and centre onto the figure on the right in the image below and you get something almost identical to the Arlon relief:

http://apps.carleton.edu/reason_package/...1365535621

Incidentally the Arlon images show that the horsemen are wearing either gloves, long-sleeved shirts with cuffs or some kind of wrist bracer.

[Sextus Saturninus]

Yes, I can. Remains of one were thought to have been found at Dura, and at other sites. They are depicted quite often on top of scale armor but mail with scale is much rarer. Comitatus has a picture of a reconstruction that one of their soldiers is wearing on their "Soldiers through the ages" page at 440ad.

[Renatus]

Yes, I can. Remains of one were thought to have been found at Dura, and at other sites. They are depicted quite often on top of scale armor but mail with scale is much rarer. Comitatus has a picture of a reconstruction that one of their soldiers is wearing on their "Soldiers through the ages" page at 440ad.

I take it that this is a response to my request for you to show us an example of this:

In the third century, some of the infantry and cavalry wore scale gorgets over their regular scale or mail armor. It looked a lot like the cavalry shoulder doublings of past principate times. The cavalry could have worn scale over their mail in other places too.

I have looked in Simon James' report on the arms and armour from Dura and can see nothing relating to such gorgets or anything like them. I have also looked in Bishop & Coulston and there is nothing there either, other than a reference to a sculpture from Brigetio which may show a metallic gorget. I have looked on the Comitatus website. The reference that you give to that is a photograph of an unarmoured archer. You may be thinking of the one above it in which a soldier wearing mail does have something around his neck but it bears no resemblance to what you describe.

This is not good enough. If you are going to make this sort of dogmatic statement, you should be prepared to give us reliable references, so that we can check whether your assertions are sustainable.

[Sextus Saturninus]

The scale gorget is just actually a form of shoulder doubling, like on the hamata, but they are in a circular variety, with a hole for the head in the center, to be worn on top of scale or mail. I thought they attributed some of the scale fragments found at Dura to a type of scale gorget, but the scales might have been from a different site.

[Renatus]

The scale gorget is just actually a form of shoulder doubling, like on the hamata, but they are in a circular variety, with a hole for the head in the center, to be worn on top of scale or mail. I thought they attributed some of the scale fragments found at Dura to a type of scale gorget, but the scales might have been from a different site.

But what is the authority for it?

[Sextus Saturninus]

Every pre 4th century scale armor shirt reproduction I have seen has either integral doubling or an attached one.

[Renatus]

Every pre 4th century scale armor shirt reproduction I have seen has either integral doubling or an attached one.

I'm sorry, that tells me nothing other than that someone somewhere thought it might be a good idea. If we are to accept that as being in any way plausible, we need to know the evidence upon which it is based. Otherwise, it is valueless.

[Sextus Saturninus]

I do not really feel like arguing, so I am leaving this thread.

[daryush]

Is this a thread on Roman armour now?

[Urselius]

Is this a thread on Roman armour now?

Oh, yes - with a vengeance

[Renatus]

Is this a thread on Roman armour now?

Oh, yes - with a vengeance

I thought it was getting quite medieval at one point!