Quote:isn't the Germanic type itself a modification of the Roman type?
Or perhaps not a modification? Presumably we call these swords 'germanic' because they were found in Germanic graves and bog deposits. But could they originally have been Roman patterns?
Back to the topic - it seems that the only sword that can be securely dated to anywhere near AD300 is the Koln spatha that Evan mentioned, and even that seems to be late 3rd rather than 4th century. Is there really nothing else from this era?
The handle looks like nothing ever found before that was developed by the Romans, and the German swords are usually dated later than the Roman examples.
It seems to have replaced the Falcata beginning in the Early 3rd century AD amongst the Germanics, around the same time it was phasing out the Gladius.
The Falcata... I love those swords.. I am getting one tomorrow! They are my absolute favorites! You are right, the Germans did have some variant of the Falcata, but the Falcata was primarily used by the Iberian tribes, notably the Lusitani. I have a Spanish impression, where the Falcata will be used. The German Falcata though had a straight blade, sharpened on one side, instead of the curving forward pattern used on the Falcata and its close Greek relative, the Kopis. It is properly called the Cherusker sword.
Quote:around the same time it was phasing out the Gladius.
'Gladius' is just a generic word for sword - so a spatha was a form of gladius. In modern usage, the word tends to be used to refer to the shorter legionary swords of the republic-principiate era, but even then I think things might have been a lot cloudier than we often assume. Swords like the two found at Canterbury and dated to the 2nd century are very big for traditional 'gladii', and already seem on their way to becoming the later 'spatha'. Then there's the ring pommel sword, of varying blade length. More a steady development than a case of anything being phased out, I'd say.
I was having a look back through Simon James' Rome and the Sword to see if he has anything to say about the Koln spatha - he doesn't, but there are illustrations (based on Miks, I assume) of a couple of Nydam/Illerup swords found with hilts. One that James refers to as 'Illerup C variant' has an H-shaped hilt made of horn, and apparently dates to the 3rd-4th century (odd, as I'd considered the C deposit to date from c375 - presumably it was an old sword!). This may have been a Scandinavian hilt on a Roman blade, of course - but perhaps the hilt too could have been original?
Meanwhile, Partick Barta has some interesting reproduction swords, with a couple of 3rd century versions with interesting hilts: the Vimose sword looks recognisably Roman, while the Podlodow and Illerup swords seem to suggest later developments.
If we only have the Koln sword to indicate a continuity in hilt patterns, might some of these other swords suggest that there was a multiplicity of forms around at the same time?
There was quite a multiplicity, I see no reason for there not to be.
And the Romans did stop using the term Gladius to refer to sword beginning in the 3rd century. In the 4th century the only word I ever see is Spatha in the Latin texts.
Gladius was the universal term for "sword" in Latin, and it did not just mean the short stabbing sword typical of the early Principate era Legionaries and Auxiliaries, as it was used to describe any sword being used.
Quote:'Gladius' is just a generic word for sword - so a spatha was a form of gladius. In modern usage, the word tends to be used to refer to the shorter legionary swords of the republic-principiate era
I am entirely with you on this and that the concept of gladius as a short sword is a modern convention. However, one has to bear in mind Tacitus, Annals 12.35, 'gladiis ac pilis legionariorum . . . spathis et hastis auxiliarium', 'the gladii and pila of the legionaries . . . the spathae and hastae of the auxiliaries'. I know that this is almost certainly a false dichotomy but it does seem to indicate that the two terms could have been viewed as subtly different.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
A good book to get would be: Illerupp Adal, Die Scherter vol 11-12 (German Text extensively illustrated with first class drawing and photos, maps etc etc deals with Swords and Scabbards) has everything you want to know pretty much as it has extensive coverage including a chronological typology.... its been around since 2006.... if you cant find it anywhere try Moesgard Museum, Arhus, Denmark.
google traslation:
"Marcin Biborski & Jørgen Ilkjær
Illerup Valley Bd. 11: Die Schwerter. Textband. 2006. (412 pages)
Illerup Valley Bd. 12: Die Schwerter. Catalog, Tafeln und Fund list. 2006. (414 pages) These reports provide a comprehensive presentation not only of the world's largest collection of Roman swords, namely those from Illerup Valley, but also of the swords from other bog finds and from graves throughout Europe. Together with swords treated scabbards and well sword scabbards which illustrates the relationship between the Roman Empire and Northern Europe. It has been found that the bar blades for the most part is made in the Roman Empire, while the bar handle and scabbards are of mixed origin. The subproject is carried out in collaboration between the University of Krakow and Moesgård Museum."
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Quote:Ah yes, that's a nice gallery on the Comitatus site.
But what might the date difference be between these two swords?:
[attachment=11195]swords.jpg[/attachment]
At what point do we move from this to this, and this, and then on to this and this (a Nydam sword dated '200-500CE', which seems to allow for a wide latitude!)
Your pic shows top: late 4th - 5th cent
bottom: 2nd - 3rd cent
links in order referring to the grips only:1: 2nd. 2: fairly generic maybe late3rd or 4th cent. 3: late 4th or 5th. 4: 4th cent.
based on the hilts page 162 Illerup Adal vol 11. to be more specific would require studying the book in depth...
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
The La Tene is by Shane Allee. I'm not sure about the dating of the original(s) it was based on, but they come from La Tene phase III. That means sometime around the turn of the 1st millennium, so a pretty long time before the others here. Also I understand that the actual appearance is somewhat speculative, based on the fact that some of these swords had straight metal guard plates.
Shane's Web site is gone but you might still be able to contact him for more information.
Dan D'Silva
Far beyond the rising sun
I ride the winds of fate
Prepared to go where my heart belongs,
Back to the past again.
-- Gamma Ray
Well, I'm tough, rough, ready and I'm able
To pick myself up from under this table...
-- Thin Lizzy
That sword looks like late 4th-early 5th century though some of them have been dated to around 350 ad. If you wanted a Roman, early 4th century sword, I would think that it would be slightly later than the Comitatus one on the bottom, but earlier than the Germanic patterns. It would end up being a very late development of the spatha style used by Romans in the third century.
The Illerup Wyhl, type Nydam 1c, I recently did, based on A578 from Miks, Original found in Gotland, Sweden. Dating is a bit unsure, but based on the preserved hiltstyle, it could be classed as a near migration era spatha. Incidently, this one is not for sale :-)
Oh, and Jason, the Germanic single edged swords have NOTHING in common with the Falcata. The main feature of these is the curved blade and the widening towards the tip. also, a falcata has a double edged section near the point. Here is a short falcata type sword:
